So if you're an airline pilot and the plane crashes, tough luck for your widow?

And if he needs transport to get to my business I should pay for that too. That logic is flawed.

And I never claimed the court system shouldnt exist, I have no idea where you are going with this. These cases end up in court anyway, they might as well decide negligence.

Life insurance.

No, only if he gets hurt working for you. That's a cost of doing business.

And you ignored the fact that SOMEBODY will pay for his injuries, and not the minimum wage guy.

Should it be me and you or the guy's employer? Those are your choices.

Your opinion.

And, yes, if the pilot offs himself, the company has no de facto obligation to the widow simply because it happened on the job. If the company sent him up with a plane that wasn't airworthy that would be an entirely different thing.

And frankly the tort system sucks and I do not embrace it. A panel of arbiters is much more reasonable. The lousy tort system does things like assign $5+ million awards for lost wages to people making 25K/yr (or less). Even in it's best case that means an award = 40 yrs of work (1 mill and 25K) to people without that earning potential.

EDIT: And as per Len: Life insurance.

I see what you're getting at and you left out one option....tough ****. But in the end, if I did nothing wrong I cannot see why I should pay anything....so find some charitable body or suck it up. Maybe they should be shared costs by all of us, but why am I forced to pay?

This idea that no one ever has to do without any care is a new fukced up idea.

Two points and I think we have reached the end of the line here.

1. You guys have just devised a negligence-based system that would make the current workers comp system seem like a walk in the park. The flight attendant that died in the plane crash will now sue the pilot and co-pilot, the mechanic that worked on the plane, the airline, the luggage company that loaded it, and every other person possibly "negligent" in the crash. One work related injury would be years of litigation and millions of dollars. And it would repeat itself over and over every day. Its unworkable and absurd. That's why we have workers comp, to avoid what the two of you just engineered on the fly.

2. You still have not answered the question. Who pays for the minium wage paraplegic's lifelong care? You and me, or the employer where he was hurt?

EDIT: daddy, I see you attempted an answer. But sticking your head in the sand doesn't count. "Tough *****" means the taxpayers will pay.

If in the end the premise is that everyone gets every form of care desired regardless of ability to pay, then yes we should all share it. But I reject that premise.....no pay....no get. (this assumes ability to pay).

Of course I also believe in charity and in helping those that cannot help themselves. So if someone that cannot help themselves needs care they cannot otherwise afford to live, then yes I will gladely pay my share. Tell me I have to pay it all.....then we have a problem.

I also think these "no negligence" comp cases should simply be handles like every other injury or illness..........health insurance. Don't have any (my guy did) then you get shuffled into the system like every other person that has no insurance. You get treated and the taxpayer foots the bill.

And the above is not at all what I said, the flight attendants family will claim negligence on the part of the airline (includes it's employees) and if proven they would pay. Easy.

What Len and I have said is that no employer should be solely responsible for the costs of a medical condition which is not due to the employer's negligence/unsafe work enviroment, but is, in fact, a reasonably expected outcome of certain types of occupations.

And what about the guy paying his own way (what a concept).

Your legal system is definitely the problem - we've got far more of a workers paradise and none of this **** gets pulled, because the legal system doesn't allow it.

We do have a state funded (well, it comes out of payroll really) workplace and accident scheme. The reality is that it provides only an adequate level of care (not gold plated) which is, IMHO, good. It makes no serious attempt to award $$$ to people for lost enjoyment of life, and most of all, there are no lawyers involved.

Mind you, for light manufacturing the combined tax is probably 3% of the gross wages, so it isn't cheap.

That is against the liberal mantra.

What you are saying is that you have the same system most states have. At about the same expense.

No "gold plated" care, no awards for pain and suffering, or loss of enjoyment of life, and payroll funded.

I don't understand how there could be no lawyers involved :)

(I'm actually serious about that, it's a legal contest, why would an employer or employee want to go though the legal system without guidance and advice)

What do you mean when you say "none of this **** gets pulled?" No fraud or abuse?

Byron,
Not really a "liberal" issue here IMO. It's vested self interest by people who make money by creating/working an adversarial process.

How about because the advice is usually in the best interest of the lawyer, not the client? (No, settle...it perpetuates more cases like this so I can tell you to settle next time and charge you a fee....again.)

And then when your done taking bad advice, you get bent over and ridden like a thoroughbred and charged 30% - 60% for it?

Most people despise and loath lawyers. Any process that they can be designed out of is a good thing.

You really don't think things through very well do you? One small problem with your little fairy tale.......

A DEAD flight attendant can not sue anyone, unless you handle those kinds of cases.

But, lets assume that they were just hurt not killed. It goes back to what everyone was saying about natural hazards of the job. IF you work on an airplane there is a natural risk of crashing. You as a passenger assume this same risk. You must have proof (not just claim) that the proper procedures were not followed before it becomes anyone else's fault. This is exactly Len's point. He even stated that he would not mind paying if the injury was truly his fault.

Sounds like you had a bad experience. If you ever work with a good lawyer, I think you'll feel differently.

My experience is not that "most people" hate lawyers. Some have no experience with the legal system, and "despise and loath" irrationally. I hope that's not you.


Some have had bad experiences. Maybe that's you.

The vast majority of people I deal with really appreciate honest and competent advice, to guide them through what are usually very trying times in their lives.

No, most people hate lawyers, it's really that simple:)

Yes she can.

Pardon me for not explaining to you the procedures of a wrongful death suit, but I doubt you'd listen anyway.

I have thought it through. So have all 50 states that reject a negligence-based workers comp system. Which would be a nightmare of epic proportions.

Ok, school's out.

I don't hate lawyers. Some of them, like prosecutors, tax lawyers, corporate law, etc. are pretty ok. In other words if I met them at a party and they said they were a corporate lawyer I'd probly say "Wow, cool."

Now, if I met one and they told me they were personal injury, medical malpractice, etc., I'd probly walk away.

That's what I meant, I wonder what the ratio is?

Hmmmm ... so Rick hates personal injury lawyers, as does daddy. But daddy would have every person hurt on the job in America go searching for a personal injury lawwyer to bring a tort claim if their employer's or co-worker's negligence caused the injury.

Sounds like a "perfect storm" of *****.

Anyway, maybe Mul can give some recommendations ... I hear he was out to hire one of the dreaded personal injury lawyers ...

No, the system should have an impartial arbitrator, then lawyers upon dispute. BTW, why do you think the guy in my case got a lawyer? The system requires the leaches either way.

No, I don't hate them. Hate is an emotion that requires deep personal insult. I don't think you can truly hate someone you don't know.

I just think they are the leeches on the arse of America, sucking the lifeblood out of this country for their own selfish gain.

LOL:D

What he said

Just a little hint, you are WAY too easy to get wound up. It was a joke. That is why Len has a Goat below his name. :D

We are not talking about a wrongful death. That would necessitate some FAILING on the part of the airline. To make your example similar to Len's; you would have to hold the airline liable even though NO fault was ever shown. You are assuming the wrongful part with nothing to back it.


P.S. Yes, everyone hates lawyers........they are an unfortunately necessary evil forced on us by a system that exists only to perpetuate itself. :p :D (It's a joke, get it?)

Actually, in cases like this, the doctrine of res ipsa loquitor (the thing speaks for itself) is invoked. Basically, this shifts the burden from the plaintiff, who normally has to prove that the defendent is negligent, to the defendent, who now has to prove that he wasn't negligent. The basic theory is that because the plane crashed, someone must have been negligent.

There is plenty not to like about any legal system, even the best one in the world. Ours. People tend to express hate and fear the most at things they do not understand, the "solutions" presented here by the deep thinkers of the board prove this.

So much for that....
(Eveready batteries) "Just keeps going & going"

Um ... what should we call that person? Hmmmmm. I know! How about "judge?"

Now, what should we call this process when the parties can't agree to settle their dispute among themselves? Hmmmmm.

I know, how about "trial?"

That's a heck of a system you designed to get around the current system of judges, lawyers and trials!! Speeder's right, you're pretty sharp!

:)

My Dad was a trial lawyer and you would never get a chance to talk to him at a party because you are just too ******* boring. You'd be over in the corners w/ the "cool" tax lawyers and CPAs. Wow. You could probably bore the balls off a brass monkey, pal. :rolleyes:

One good thing about trial lawyers is they do bore easily...often with their nice new sports cars.

I truly hope that neither you nor anyone you love is injured or killed because of someone else's negligence, greed, or recklessness. If, god forbid, that ever happens, you will want to hold the person or company that caused your misery responsible. And you will realize that there are some bad actors out there, people that will put you and everyone else in danger for the sake of a few extra cents profit per unit, and that they will do everything possible to deny your demand for justice.

Then you'll go find one of these "leeches" to get the justice you deserve.

There are plenty of bad actors in the legal ranks, your foolishness is in thinking that's the only place they live.

This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friend...

LOL, your lack of comprehension is staggering. No, when a workplace injury occurs it must be reported immediately, an arbitrator decides if this should be filed as employer negligence or not. No leaches....er lawyers to this point. If after that the at fault party disagrees then they can lawyer up and enter the current system.

This allows for the non negligent employer to be off the hook for things that are not his fault. There is currently no remedy for this.


This logic evades you?

I have needed a personal injury attorney and he was a leach. All he cared about was getting his cut a quickly as possible. I wanted to go to trial he wanted to settle, I finally caved out of frustration.

The fact that I needed to file suit against another party for legitimate reasons does not say anything about my charactor.

The fact that someone files a lifetime of continuous suits against people they know or believe are faultless purely for the financial gain does say something about theirs.

And just because they sometimes have honest and worthy clients does not cleanse their hands.

No, your logic is truly stunning.

If the "impartial arbitrator" (we won't call him a judge) tells the unrepresented worker he doesn't have a case, in the context of some proceeding where the parties but not lawyers can present evidence so the "impartial arbitrator" actually can make an informed decision, and if the unrepresented worker decides that's cool with him, he didn't want the money or surgery or lifelong therapy anyway, your system works beautifully. Fast and streamlined and easy.

Like I said, you are sharp. You have designed a system that if everyone agrees there is no need for a case, it goes really easily :)

Holy **** you might be getting it! If the employee does not claim it was the employers fault it goes though the standard medical insurance/lack thereof system. If the employee feels their employer is at fault it goes through roughly the current fukced up system. (except that now if the employer can show they were not negligent then it gets tossed back into the standard medical insurance system) Try to grasp that last part, it's really important.


There is hope for you yet! You've been going to night school haven't you? Good for you:D

The scary part is I think you are actually serious.

If I were you, I'd leave the dispute resolution process to others ... I'm sure you're good with your hands or something :)

So you don't get it? .......Well don't give up yet, everyone learns at their own pace:D