The American way is the Christian way. From the Salvation Army, to the YMCA, to the Red Cross, to the American education system, to the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, to America herself, all good has come from Christianity in this country...It was not the atheists and Islamics and liberals amassing monies to help out in New Orleans, after Katrina, it was 99% Christians...The best liberals and atheists can do is attempt to hijack the good Christianity has done and act like they had something to do with it.

And further proof it's a 'she'

Ya, please keep your hate speech focused at Bush, Republicans and all things Christian...or they will key your car.

Not random chance. But they are precisley examples of evolution. Their beauty, or the perception of it, improves the chance they will successfully breed, and thus the continuation of their genes.

Top of the class, Mul.

proof of life elswhere in the Universe will rock the organized religious world imo.

Meanwhile it was Christian churches that spread Tom Paine's rebellion philosophy and Christianity has become the unifing moral code of our economy. Maybe it's because the Vatican is the greatest political organization the world has ever seen with it's central philosophical core. Every Moslem sect has its own twist on its philosophy. Kinda like a war waiting to happen if not against a common enemy than among themselves.

One's God "truth" belongs to one's own. Different strokes for different folks.

If a UFO ever lands here and takes a good look around the first communication will be "Where the hell is the manager of this place?"

when they can read DNA [soon] they will be able to
say what evolved into what when
there by ending this debate
so the christian fairytale belivers have limited time to act
as they will soon be proved WRONG and darwin correct

but the real big deal is not belife in christian fairytales
but the forced teaching of those fairytales in public schools
the christianrightwing nuts are not content to be allowed
to have their misguided belifes but feel compelled to use the state schools to force their fairytales on everyone
before the DNA info ends their chance

Focus!!

The scientific theories keep getting replaced by "more correct" theories.
Why can't they just say we don't know. Be honest.

They don't.

Where are all the animals becoming new animals and mutants?
( or the evidence of them )

They should be easy to spot.


KT

Nope. Just because "some guy" says he can interpret DNA doesn't mean we all just bow down and believe that.

People have a hard time with faith, yet they put "full confidence" in the scientists that they are *always* right. Weird, huh?

They'll just make up whatever they please and then replace that with whatever they want to fit their "theory".

The usual...


KT

You're right, KT, we don't know everything. That's why theories change as we figure more things out. You seem to have a problem with this? I see it as a virtue of the scientific method.

You, like many others, display very little understanding of evolutionary theory. "New" animals are evolving all the time - the process is just so slow that it is generally not detectable. You didn't read Moses' post regarding e. coli, though, did you? That is an example of new species being created right in front of our eyes through the process of evolution. Why do you ignore information that contradicts your statements? We know the age of the Earth. Why do you ignore that information?

I, for one, do not see (or use) the theory of evolution as a vehicle to prove or disprove god. It's just a scientific theory, folks. It's like saying the the theory of plate tectonics disproves god because humans used to think that god(s) created earthquakes. It's silly and just demonstrates that you are either ignorant of what the theory itself actually says or your faith is so weak that you see everything as an attack (i.e. Christian bashing).

The theory of evolution says nothing about the origins of life or about the existence of a creator. Many Christians (including the Catholic church) fully accept and support the theory. If anyone feels threatened by the theory, then I suggest you look inward and not blame the evilutionists...

Mike

I have learned that my prayers only get answered if I
forward an email to seven of my friends and make a wish within five minutes.

You lost me on that. Where does it say in the Bible that we were God's only creations in the Universe? If life showed up from somewhere else in the Universe, which verses would it contradict?

That being said, the "elephant in the room" in the random-evolution-causes-life-to-pop-up-all-over-the-place theory is the fact that we have yet to find any evidence of life (let alone "higher life forms" beyond our solor system). If they're that common and life is so inevitable -- where is everyone?

But it's certainly worthwhile to keep looking (Go SETI-Online!)

Actually it foesnt say it in so many words but the whole theme of the bible would be useless if there was intelligent life on another planet.

How would "Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" be useless if there were intelligent life on another planet???

Sorry about the mispellings. I am a land surveyor and we are not suppsed to be able to speel. Its the sign of a good surveyor.

I use firefox and speel chick does not work with that browser.

I am bowing out of this debate. Obviously when I make a very valid point it is indicated I am just plain stupid and cannot have an opinion in my uneducated mind that is valid.

I have gotten through life on common sense. I have no real formal education. I have no business degree yet I own a very successful businss run on my instincts. Hell, I am not educated past high school my parents could not afford to put me through college. Once I started working in the real world to save to go to college I decided not to bother. I have never regretted it.

I think my point has been perfectly made. I have stood in Chichén Itzá during the fall equinox. Any idea what happens there during the exact moment of the equinox? These people were not stupid, they were very advanced. Their civilization disappeared 1100 years ago and scientists are totally baffled as to why. This was ONLY 1100 years ago!! Thery cannot even find their buried dead and have no idea what they did with them.

You are trying to tell me scientists know for a fact what was going on 100 million years ago when they cannot figure out what happened 1100 years ago? I say Bull my instincts say BULL!! Its all guessing beeing masked as intelligence and education and when contested the contestor is being dismissed as a stupid, uneducated fundamentalist who's opinion is not valid.

I refer to you to my 1st post in this thread. We are right back where we started.

Thats not the overall theme of the bible. The issue of god universal sovereignty is being challenged by satan. If there was life on another planet this would not be an issue. Satan would have been wiped out and god would have started over with his original plan.

If there is life on another planet, and it becomes known here on earth and proved, (I have said this twice now) I will throw out my bible and become an atheist.

I have been to Chichen Itza also. Climbed half way up and then freaked out and came back down. :>) They told us during the tour that everyone left due to a period of severe droughts.

Something that happened yesterday can be baffling if there is not enough evidence to discern what happened. Something that happened 10000 years ago can be well understood if there is ample evidence. Take the age of the Earth, for instance. There is substantial evidence to make a pretty good determination of the age of the Earth. Not that big of a deal.

Mike

I'm not sure if the Bible should merely be considered a battle report. Matthew records the following exchange when Jesus was asked to summarize the Bible (as of that point in time):
If you are a Christian, that is pretty authoritative. If you are not, it's at least a sicinct summary of the Bible to that time by a widely acknowledged expert. Jesus also is quoted with a further elaboration on this in John 3

My only point in quoting chapter and verse is that no where does it say anything about extraterrestial alians. Silence is silence. If it is silent, you can not say that the existance of ET's proves or dis-proves the Bible, because the Bible does not say anything about ET's. When asked to explain the Jewish Bible (aka: "Old Testement") Jesus doesn't talk about any struggle between good evil, and he does't talk about alians. When asked to explain his teachings, once again ET's and battles don't enter the discussion. So to make ET's a Bible versus athiest argment doesn't stand up. It's an argument, but hardly biblical.

When it comes to the mechanics life on this planet, once again the Bible is largely silent. A person who reads Genesis and claims to know exactly how God created the universe makes about as much sense as my 6 or 9 year old daughters reading the driver's manual of my 911, and then proclaiming that they know exactly how the car functions. So while some would proclaim that evolution absoluting invalidates the Bible, and others claim the opposite. I'd argue that both views are pretty dramatic cases of hubris on the part of the person taking that position.

You know something? I don't care really if I was Created or if I Evolved. I'm here, you're all here, we have fast machines, pretty women, beautiful mountains, oceans, lakes and good food. I really don't need to know the truth behind it all. I'm good as is!

bye!

Jesus role in the outworking of God's will is important.
The guidelines he shared by his actions are key to peace.

However, the kingdom he taught his followers to pray for ( matt 6:9,10 ) is the theme of the Bible. The government of God will prove forever the he is the Universal Sovereign.

Science is hit and miss, trial and error.
I read the E. Coli lab test. I think were talking about modified immunity, not evolution. People do that too, but you'll notice that their children still need vaccination shots. It doesn't pass on to offspring.

Jim, don't let Sir RPKESQ bother you.
He's always been rude and insulting to me, too.
It always come down to logic, sense and higher education with him.

Science does not satisfy a spiritual need or give solutions for man's problems.

Creation allows for variation within species . Dogs, cats, birds...Races of people. That's not evolution.

As to the age of the earth...What "accurate" age determining method are they using now?

Do we have to show why carbon dating is flawed?
Guesses aren't facts. Why do they always give these great big round numbers, BTW? 65,000,000 year ago... 350 Billion years.

What if it was 250 Billion? Ahh, what's another 100 billion among friends?
( sarcasm alert )

KT

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-science, technolgy or modern living.
I just get sick of the "smarties" proclaiming their latest "findings" as everlasting fact.

A guess by a smart person doesn't automatically make it true.

KT

That boy has cried wolf so many times that I ignore any new mountain of scientific mumbo-jumbo they come up with to rationalize their new found theory to replace they old found theory...At this point I take offense that they have the nerve to suggest you read through their nonsense only to conclude, once again, that they are FOS.

Jim Cesiro wrote:
I am bowing out of this debate. Obviously when I make a very valid point it is indicated I am just plain stupid and cannot have an opinion in my uneducated mind that is valid.
I have gotten through life on common sense. I have no real formal education. I have no business degree yet I own a very successful businss run on my instincts. Hell, I am not educated past high school my parents could not afford to put me through college. Once I started working in the real world to save to go to college I decided not to bother. I have never regretted it.
I think my point has been perfectly made. I have stood in Chichén Itzá during the fall equinox. Any idea what happens there during the exact moment of the equinox? These people were not stupid, they were very advanced. Their civilization disappeared 1100 years ago and scientists are totally baffled as to why. This was ONLY 1100 years ago!! Thery cannot even find their buried dead and have no idea what they did with them.
You are trying to tell me scientists know for a fact what was going on 100 million years ago when they cannot figure out what happened 1100 years ago? I say Bull my instincts say BULL!! Its all guessing beeing masked as intelligence and education and when contested the contestor is being dismissed as a stupid, uneducated fundamentalist who's opinion is not valid.



I’m sorry Jim, what valid point perfectly made were you referring to? The fact you went to this Mayan site? And yes, you might like to know celestial alignments are the most common attribute of pre-Columbian sites. Further study into these civilizations, instead of a tourist presentation would have taught you that. Mayan dead have been found and documented. Scientists are not totally baffled. Your perceptions are wrong based on very incomplete knowledge.

Science never claims it has all the right answers. Science will change when it gets repeatable results that vary from the theory being tested. As it should.

You are under the delusion that I think your stupid. No, I think you are arriving at conclusions without proper research or study. Can you run a business without higher education? Of course, who said you could not? Can you be successful without a higher education, of course, who ever said differently? Can you judge the validity of a subject when you KNOW very little about it? NO. Just because you have an opinion, (your instincts, as you call them), does that mean they are valid? NO. Uninformed opinions are worthless, because they are uniformed.

For example: If you went to your doctor and he told you that you had a brain tumor and was going to need surgery. Would you, seeking a second opinion, go outside and find the first drunk you could find to ask his opinion on the need for your surgery? No? Why not? you mean you would want an education informed opinion? Same as the above example of Mayan civilization, buddy.

No, you are not stupid. In matter of fact I think you are quite smart. But that does not mean you have learned to research properly and present the results in a logical manner. Why do you see this observation as an insult? Are you a lawyer, doctor, Indian chief? No? Does my pointing out you have no valid opinions in these areas also insult you? Why?
I for one would hate to see you leave this discussion. My intentions all along have been to foster questions and promote the skill of critical thinking. That’s it. No other agenda, no hate, no liberal bias (whatever that empty phrase means).

Many will say I am a Christian basher. That is only a semi-lie. I am against ALL religions. ALL. No religion promotes open questioning and an open mind. Some will argue that we are a Christian based culture. As if that makes it alright to promote hatred, bigotry, racism, etc. We were formed by a collection of middle class British subjects, that had every vice known to man. America was created by slavers, smugglers, tax cheats, wife-cheaters, atheists as well as Christians (quick, which one of the Founding Fathers rewrote the bible to eliminate all references to god?), thieves, etc. They had and developed some very good ideas, but to attribute them to only Christianity is just not true. Read what our Founding Fathers wrote themselves. In their own words
Before we start making run off at the mouth bizarre statements (Null) that are suppose to support of viewpoint, we need to run though a proven methodology, that will enable us to arrive at the correct answer. Most statements made are just regurgitation of someone else’s opinion; they are mostly a knee-jerk emotional rant, not a carefully examined, critically thought-out position. How many here, check their statements for accuracy against multiple viewpoint sources? How many? How many are using outdated information and sources? How many care, as long as they reflect your feelings?

By the way Jim, my parents could not pay for my college either. I worked one full time job and two part time jobs all the while in college. My Masters degree was paid for by Uncle Sam after serving in the Army. I feel anyone who wants a college education in this country can get one.

Do you simply make this stuff up? Do you know anything about the scientific method? (rhetorical questions...)

You might not consider yourself "anti-science" but you certainly are ignorant of science. Not that there's anything wrong with that...it just becomes glaringly obvious when you try to discuss scientific subjects. I don't know anything about accounting, but I don't tell accountants that they're idiots and don't know what they're talking about. They'd see right through that in an instant.

It's not worth even trying to educate you regarding your misconceptions because you have no desire to listen or learn.

Mike

I'm sure you read it, you just didn't understand it.

The bacteria that became penicillin resistant had mutations in their DNA that made them resistant. Inheritable genetic mutation that allows adaptation. That IS evolution.

Modified immunity? Bacteria have no immune system. No, not even a primordial one, thus nothing to modify.

There's wisdom in that!

God created evolution.

cashflyer wrote:
God created evolution.

Prove it.

He doesn't have to. It's an element of faith.

Deal with it.

OK, I will.
I am GOD. Please direct all needs and wants to me and I will deal with them like I deal with with all such requests. This is a free service. Please include $29.95 to cover postage and shipping.
As always,
God

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Bingo.

And when someone doesn't understand, they either misuse the information, or turn a blind eye and wrap themselves up in their faith.

I have no issue with faith or belief. I do have an issue when people try and either twist science to support their faith or denigrate thousands of years of logicla thought and analysis.

Do we know everything? Not even close. Do we get things wrong? All the time. That is the key to science...failing and learning from it.

And I'll say it again....faith is fine. But why insist on either denying science or flailing to try misapply the current state of theory to support your faith? Faith is faith...if it is strong, you shouldn't need *any* scientific backing.

The Queen of Hearts could do something we seem not to be able to successfully do:

Believe multiple "impossible things" before breakfast.

It is possible, with a little thought, to believe in a Creator and believe in evolution at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

Why do people continually try to prove the unprovable?

At the end of the day, religion is about faith. Athiesm requires as much faith as Christianity since as an Athiest you absolutely believe that God does not exist. Until Edwin Hubble, people didn't believe that other galaxies existed either. They had no knowledge to support their belief, but they had faith that since the couldn't see, feel, hear or touch them, that they must not exist. Now maybe there were some people who did believe that other galaxies existed, they too had no more proof, but merely faith in their belief. At the end of the day, both groups had faith in their beliefs. The time came when Hubble looked in his telescope, did some calculations and concluded that there really was more out there then we thought.

Christians believe in God (as opposed to a god) because of the history and teachings handed down in the Bible. It describes real people, doing real things in real places. While there are other religions with other books and gods, they tend to fall short on the real people, doing real things in real places test. Christians have faith in those teachings and people described in the Bible and thus believe in God. Athiests have access to the same information, but do not have the faith to believe it. Unfortunately, none of us can change another's faith in something -- it can't be inflicted from the outside.

If you mis-quote or mis-understand the Bible, I'll be happy to help correct your mis-understanding. If you're curious and want some input on what it means, I'll be happy to help. If you just flat out don't want to believe -- I'm not going to hate you, fight you or berate you. I honestly believe that God wants you to willfully believe in him and if you chose not to, that is your choice which you're free to make. I'm still going to try to like you even if you make it hard for me.

Good day!
SmileWavy

Nice post except for this nonsense. Why did you have to go there? That is a very narrow Judeo/Christian view on other religious texts...and incorrect. You can find historical accuracy in many other traditions...

Why is it hard for you to like people if they don't believe the same things that you do? That seems very narrow-minded. Maybe I misunderstood this statement.

Atheists don't "absolutely believe that god does not exist". They simply feel that there is not compelling evidence. Subtle, but important difference. Provide me with some compelling evidence I'll believe. I promise.

Mike

Recent archealogical finds in the Isreal suggest that there really was a King David based on inscriptions found some corner stones. This would be the first physical evidence of his existance aside from contents in the Bible. While not admittedly "slam dunk", it is moving the bar back that the people and places in the Bible are accurate at least that far back in time. The "New Testiment" people and places are a lot easier (although these have been argued elsewhere on this BBS, you can go there for that argument, I'm not trying to re-start it), but it is pretty well accepted that Jesus, John (both of them), Peter, Paul and the others were real people with specific references to real places. Even the women from Ceasoria (another real place) who was plagued by bleeding and reported to be healed by touching Jesus's cloak was accepted as real until at least 300-400 AD since there was a contemporary statue in that place as reported by Eusebius. I suspect that it was melted down when the Muslims over-ran Isreal and replaced all of the holy sites with Mosques. There are numerous detail references in the Bible to things like foot washing, ritual bathing and foods which have come to be accepted by archealogical finds even though in the interim time they were unknown aside from the biblical references. There are also many "hostile" references to events that occurred in the Bible. For example there are numerous ancient non-biblical references to places and battles described in the Book of Kings. Is any of this slam dunk? No -- but then that's what faith is for.

I can't speak to many other religions, but I have read about 2/3 of the Koran believe that it fails a number of those tests even though I accept that Mohammad was a real person who did move from Madina, to Mecca and back again. But any references to events before that time (circa 650 and later) do not stand up very well. I do accept though that Muslims accept the Koran on faith just as I accept the Bible. But on the veracity of it's contents I guess we agree to dis-agree. If a Muslim would like to learn about the Bible (it's not readily available nor read in the much of the Islamic world), I'd be happy to discuss it with them in a friendly fashion. I on the other hand picked up the Koran from a number of editions that were available at Barnes and Noble.

Of Budhism and Hindu-ism I only have a passing knowledge of, but there's always tomorrow to start learning. Confusism (?) and Tao-ism have zero history prior to their founders, and so have about as much provanance as RPKESQ does. (Sorry RPKESQ, but you'll have to work harder then that for my $29.95.) Once you get into the various idalitries, there's usually nothing there except a man-made figure, so they're pretty much non-starters.

Those are the things on which I chose to base my faith. I understand if you chose not to.

IROC, you have never been hard to like (at least virtually since we've never met in person). So I think the old cliche "if the shoe fits, wear it" certainly applies in your case.

Quote:

Atheists don't "absolutely believe that god does not exist". They simply feel that there is not compelling evidence. Subtle, but important difference. Provide me with some compelling evidence I'll believe. I promise. Mike

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
I guess you either believe God doesn't exist or you don't. It sounds like you're kind of soft on the Athiest thing so you may be a "closet agnostic".

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
That's OK. A healthy skeptism is a good thing. ;)

John - where is Westford, MA? I have to go to Andover next week (most likely), but have never been anywhere near there. Is it close to Westford?

Mike

You guys still persevering, trying to find that indisputable argument that does not exist in a topic like this since it always boils down to what you WANT to believe.