Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
 

How ironic!

Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'
Canadian wrote of militia's presence, 'necessity' of bombing

Joel Kom, with files from Steven Edwards, CanWest News Service
The Ottawa Citizen

Thursday, July 27, 2006

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.

A Canadian Forces infantry officer with the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and the only Canadian serving as a UN military observer in Lebanon, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener was no stranger to fighting nearby.

The UN post, he wrote in the e-mail, afforded a view of the "Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base."

"It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area," he wrote, noting later it was too dangerous to venture out on patrols.

The e-mail appears to contradict the UN's claim there had been no Hezbollah activity in the vicinity of the strike.

The question of Hezbollah's infiltration of the area is significant because UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, speaking Tuesday just hours after the bombing, accused the Israelis of the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the base near Khiam in southern Lebanon.

A senior UN official, asked about the information contained in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the world body had been caught in a contradiction.

"At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon.

"Whether or not they thought they were going after something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them where we were. They knew where we were. The position was clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us."

Even if Hezbollah was not firing rockets at the time of the bombing, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail indicates they were using a terrorist tactic of purposely drawing out enemy forces near a neutral site, said retired Capt. Peter Forsberg, who did two UN tours between 1993 and 1995 during the Bosnian war.

The UN's limited mandate, meaning that its observers are unarmed and have few options, put the observers in a poor position, he said.

If indeed Israel was attempting to hit Hezbollah fighters in the area, it hasn't yet used the excuse to explain its actions because it wouldn't make it any less guilty in the world's eyes, Capt. Forsberg said.

Typical Right Wing Rubbish....There I said it....Israel should apolgize to Hezbollah for letting their Border Guards get captured... I think Israel should surrender, give the keys to their Nuklear Bunker to them, let them blow the place up and be done with it all. Ohhh and bring our troops home from Iraq tommorow...

As a matter of principle America should apologize to the world for being America...lets give all our enemies cookies and milk and we will all break out in a rendition of KumBY YA....

YEah and what kind of Dope Smoke Haze do U have your head in?

In reality this isn't about the Hizzys and Israel...its about Iran saying we have the power to reach out and start ***** if we want. The King of Jordan has it right this is about the ****ie Crescent.

U notice the Sunni countries aren't saying much about Israel. If the ****ies get a bomb the Sunnis will want one to....and who in the world trusts the rag headed wogs to be responsible with a bomb...they get so emotional firing off their AKs into the air.....

So if Kofi Dumbass read his memos he would not have made the irresponsible remark about deliberate targeting by the Israelis?

No, that is not true I suppose. He does not care if what he says is true or not, just so long as it is not something that could possibly be construed as support for Israel or the US.

Not to be obtuse, but why would anyone be surprised about this. They send their kids out with bombs strapped to them, set up positions in Mosques, hospitals, schools, apartment buildings and start shooting rockets at the Jews.

Basic difference in tactics, which is putting the IDF in a tough spot. Hezbollah wants the max number of civilian casualties possible on both sides by design, Israel does not.

Hezbollah is now viewed favorably by 87% of the once-moderate Lebaneese population. Its terrorist leader has become a regional hero.

The first Arab democracy in the world has been radicalized, turning ordinary citizens into terrorists.

Not a good strategy for wining "the war on terror." You "bomb em' into sumission" guys have any better ideas?

Yeah I got an idea, we send American Liberals over there to talk them to death...

Won't work.


Anything else, or you all out of ideas?

You could never compete w/ the neocons when it comes to solutions that are worse than the original problem. Don't even try, it's a sucker bet.

Yep Denis.

Any solution to any problem in the world that requires more than 60 seconds thought is de facto "liberal" according to Bushies on this board.

So your answer to an untenable situation that can't be allowed to continue would be to do nothing. Often doing nothing is worse than doing something.

We could have the UN pass some resolutions to force the Lebanese to get rid of the bad actors so they could all live in peace, wait a sec, we already did that. Gee, guess asking them to be responsible for themselves does not work.

How about this idea, we could isolate them from the rest of the world until they start acting right and doing what they say they are going to do, no way that could take more than 10 years. Hold on, no that did not work in Iraq. How could that be? The full force and power of the UN can't make things happen. Inconceivable, perhaps we had a bad apple that was corrupt and making money off the situation, could never happen twice ;)

How about this one. Since none of these people can get along without trying to kill each other, we let them fight it out until the Israelis kill everyone else in the area, then kick them out and keep it for ourselves. This is all clearly Israel's fault, why should they get to stay. We can turn it into a Kamp Krusty and send all the conservatives there.

Oh BTW, this 60 second attention span is not peculiar to conservatives, it is a side effect of the way people get into power here. No offense meant, but it makes you sound a bit more ridiculous when you say stuff like that.

This woman needs some love and kisses to enlighten her.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154376853.jpg

I know the binary thinkers have a hard time with this, but I'll throw it out there ...

It's not either "bomb em' to the stone age" or "kiss them until they are happy."

Contemplate that for more than 60 seconds, and you may realize that creating more terrorists is NOT the way to win this battle.

Iran's power and influence has probably never been greater, at least in the modern era. THINK about why that is, how we got to that situation, and what we can do to kill the bad guys without making too many more.

Just nuke em. Neutron bombs, just enough to wipe out the entire mideast. No people, no problems, just oil.

No it is not an either or situation, obviously.

We, and by we I mean civilized humanity (+ you), have tried carrots, sticks, carrots on sticks, food, money, sanctions in various combinations to no avail for what, a millenium(that is a thousand years for us binary thinkers) The Israelis want to exist, the Muslims don't want them to do so, it really is pretty simple.

Many things have been tried and failed, by folks with more wisdom and intelligence than I. You are the smartest one in the room, as far as you know, so lets hear the answer, don't keep us in suspense. I will pay your airfare to Sweden to pick up your Nobel prize, lay it on us, I think the world is ready.

Oh, and on the off chance that you don't have the "solution", contemplate why it is that the Left is viewed as a bunch negative nellies because they talk about how terrible things are being done, but don't make suggestions about how to fix anything, aside from, "No way we screw it up worse than these guys", which is all you are really saying now.

But from their perspective, this is essentially the way they will perceive any action. They will reason that if we could "bomb em' to the stone age", we would. They don't understand mercy like we do; they see mercy as an attempt to cover an underlying weakness. "They must be offering peace because they know they can't win. If they could win, they would and then they wouldn't have to offer peace." By doing anything short of "bombing em' to the stone age", we feed the belief that we are playing games to hide unknown weaknesses. The way arabs fight each other is by killing the soldiers, their children, their parents, their grandparents, and their pet goldfish. The only kind of warfare they understand is winning by overwhelming, ruthless, and unforgiving force. If they see an enemy not doing this, they reason it is because they can't.

Of course I don't have some neat solution to Muslim terrorism. I do know that what Israel is doing now, with America's backing, killing little children and shelling the only Arab democracy in the Middle East back to the stone age, is NOT working.

Can we at least agree on that? 87% approval for Hezbollah in Lebanon means that once again, we have let them outsmart us.

Yes, we are doing everything wrong to stop Musim terrorism. Make fun of me because that is what I believe, call me a "liberal" because our military and foreign policy is fcuked up beyond repair, but that only serves to divide you and me, not to move forward with something that might work.

There is a combination of force and diplomacy that has a chance of success. The first order of business, much as you dislike this, is to get rid of the crew that got us into this miserable situation. George Bush got outsmarted. Face it, and let's try to move ahead from here.

And that Legion, is why we will never have peace in the Middle East

We will never reconcile fundamentally differing belief systems. Israel has tried half measures in the past. Kill as many as you absolutely have to and no more does not work, or there would be peace there now.

That is what Americans do not understand, or can't accept. Sometimes you really have to be cruel to be kind.

If our "belief systems" are so fundamentally different, how can you continue to support Mr. Bush's grand idea that everyone wants freedom, and that giving the Arab world democracy will make them partners in civilization, not enemies.

Can't have it both ways, dude.

Let me put it to you this way:

Do you let your alcholic teenager go to the Prom if they promise to stop drinking, or do you ground [punish] them until they stop drinking?

I would like to know where this number came from.

Good question. I heard it on Meet the Press yesterday, I believe.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes:

More likely than not this whole thing was orchestrated by the U.S. and the Israelis months ago, just waiting for the opportunity. Think about it: Israel just bides its time waiting for the right "justification" to hammer the ***** out of Hezbollah, which of course inflames the Muslim world. It makes them the "bad guy". Big effin' deal - they're already the "bad guy" to most nations in that area anyway. So that sets the stage for the U.S. to ride in and play diplomat under the banner of "multinational coalition" (*cough-cough*) - sound familiar? Translation - permanent U.S. presence in Lebanon and possible staging for future action against Syria/Iran using resupply of Hezbollah as an excuse to "pursue" such resuppliers into those countries and from there, it's only a small step to "let's root out the problem at its source" or "we will make no distinction between terrorists and those countries that harbor them" (a la Bushy, post 9-11).

I suspect we can see formal calls for "multinational coalition" by the Bushco administration in the next few days pretending to play peacemaker while sneaking troops (lots of 'em) closer to the next battlefronts.

The guy wants WW3. Plain and simple. Unfortunately, I think it will probably end up being his legacy.

Men 18-35, get ready for a new draft.

No way to do that without a draft. And massive tax increases. And the support of the American people. Don't think any of these things are going to happen.

Hezbollah and Syria and Iran are going to come out of this stronger. Israel and the US weaker.

They played us, again. That the dirty rotten bstards use THEIR OWN women and children to play us for suckers makes them all the more evil. But they won this round, and several rounds before.

If this were a prizefight, the ref would stop it. We are getting pummeled.

Where, oh where did you get this deep understanding of half the people in the world? At a NASCAR race tailgate party?? :confused:

The root of the problem is ignorance and greed, on both sides. Ignorance on the part of the Muslim world where people are not allowed a balanced look at the world and freedoms that we take for granted, and the beligerent, proud ignorance of most Americans who think that they "know" the history of conflicts in the ME by listening to anecdotal BS analysis like the above. I do not mean to single you out here, your simplistic and uninformed beliefs are extremely common.

I do not have a background in near eastern studies, but I know people who do and I can assure you that they would shake their heads at your "summary" of ME tensions. Even the conservative experts, if they are truly experts. C. Rice is an expert. You paint a picture of a huge slice of the current human population as being blood-thirsty would-be murderers, who would cook you and your children on the BBQ grille if they could just find their way to suburban Chicago and your house, (or where ever it is that you reside). :rolleyes:

While gross generalizations are to be avoided with large #s of people, I think that it is safe to say that the overwhelming majority of people on the planet desire to live in peace w/o poverty and worship or not worship as they choose. I do not buy the premise that the average person in South Asia, or anywhere else, gives 2 schits what you are doing in Illinois as long as it does not impact their daily life. The problem is that nations do things that adversely affect peoples' daily life in far away places that you will never learn about at the auto parts store, or where ever in the world people get their kooky ideas about people from other cultures. Maybe FOX News, I don't know. I'm not a consumer of any of that type of media.

The best thing that any of us average people can do, IMO, is educate ourselves as thoroughly as possible about other cultures and regions, knowledge is power in a democratic society and it is the only defense against leaders who will sell whatever self-serving actions or policies they need to advance at the time to an absolutely helpless and hapless electorate who can be sold simplistic crap like "nuke the ME".

I believe the real problem is that Muslims want all non-Muslims dead, period. It's what their so called religion of peace teaches them. Now they believe they have the means to do it. How do you fight that other than genocide? This is scaring the hell out me, fortunately I'm not of draft age, but at this rate my 12yo son will be before this is all over.

Which "regular" folks in South Asia are we talking about? Are we talking about all of the nutbags that have poured out of the Islamic schools in Pakistan? The people who riot because the logo on Bata sneakers vaguely resembles some Arabic symbol that is insulting or sacreligous? Or the Imam that issued a fatwah calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie for writing a novel? Or maybe the president of Iran who believes that the end of the world is nigh and he has no problem expediting it? Or maybe the following of the late Mr. Al Zaquawi, who thought it was ok to kill Shi'ites because they didn't agree exactly with his theology? Much of MY information on the ME conflict comes from watching the comments of the average Arab on television. I remember Palestinians celebrating on the street on Septemeber 12, 2001. Was that an islolated incident?

From Israel's point of view, having an enemy military force operating freely just over the Lebanese border, firing rockets of increasing range and payload ever deeper into Israel, growing in strength and sophistication, was an untenable situation. What government could allow this to continue?

There was no reallistic chance of getting the Lebanese government to control Hezbollah. Nor was an international solution available. Making nice to the Palestinians would not help, because Hezbollah is not particularly interested in the Palestinian plight. Hezbollah is funded, armed, and motivated by Iran for its own purposes. Iran's goal is to create violence to distract the international community from its nuclear weapons program.

I therefore think that military action by Israel was inevitable, at some point. If it ignored one attack, others would follow. The longer they waited, the stronger Hezbollah would be. Hezbollah has already shown an impressive ability to knock out Israeli tanks. It is not some rag-tag band of oppressed Arab youth - it is a bona fide military force that has already become dangerously strong (from Israel's perspective).

In my opinion, Israel needed to, and still needs to, escalate the ground attack. Its leaders seem to have thought that they could neutralize Hezbollah with airstrikes, which is AFAIK not working since Hezbollah has a deep tunnel network and operates in urban/civilian areas. As I said in another thread, I think Israel is making the mistake of holding back.

I know people have said Israel's actions were "disproportionate". This may be so, but I do not see why it matters. Almost by definition, a successful war must be disproportionate. There is no point in exchanging tit for tat like children playing checkers, or in trading one life for another until both sides collapse (ref French, German, and Russian armies in WWI).

Strange comments for a liberal, perhaps. But I think that when it comes to the Middle East, it has become really pointless to argue who is "in the ethical right" or has the "moral high ground". Both sides have done so much wrong to each other that there's no longer an aggressor and a victim. It has become a brutal situation of realpolitik. What is a practical solution that leads to the absence of violence. Never mind a sincere peace, much less justice. If Hezbollah in Lebanon is neutralized, there will not be war on the Israel/Lebanon border.

Well put......

If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be no more violence.

It the Israelis lay down there arms, there will be no more Israel.


This is how it is. If you have a democracy, a real democracy where people are not afraid to speak out, because they have a gang of very well armed nut-jobs who want all the Infidels dead, you won't have war. War is horrible, something I have no doubt the folks in the ME understand much better than some liberal wanker Red Sox fan who never saw someone they know in pieces because some ******* was shooting rockets from the apartment upstairs.

The folks who want to kill as many Infidels as possible, and are willing to sacrifice their neighbors and their children to this cause, will perceive Israel stopping as weakness. This will embolden them, urging them to more action. This is what I refer to when I say fundamentally differing belief systems.