Tube audiophiles - tube sound on a budget advice please.

scottmandue · 09-16-2006, 07:16 AM

I have a storage room off of my garage and I am thinking of setting up a small (12 X 16) listening room to escape to. We will discuss acoustics and construction latter, let's focus on audio.

I was looking at tube amps from China on EBay and you can get a preamp for around $350-400 USD and a power amp for $300-350 USD however because they are so heavy I am looking at +/- $300 shipping EACH.

At that price and the possible dubious quality of Chinese equipment I think I can maybe buy local.

Please note that I have a home theater w/sub-woofer upstairs to listen to loud rock and roll. This will be a low watt esoteric system for listening to jazz and classical.

So with a $2000 budget I am looking at, 1 tube power amp, 1 tube preamp, 1 dedicated CD player, 2 small high efficiency speakers. Yes I know you can spend more that $2000 on any one piece of equipment above but this is an exercise in how much sound can you get for a little bit of money.

To save money I am willing to buy used or I am pretty handy with a soldering iron so I am willing to DIY... only caveats are:

1. Buying used, I'm the kind of guy that doesn't buy new until the old stuff starts to smoke. I know there are people who habitually upgrade their system ever few years so I'm pretty sure there is good used equipment out there but it worries me a little bit. (Kind of like buying a used sports car, was this guy tracking the car every weekend or just using it to cruise the beach on Sunday afternoons)

2.DIY, I like building things but I get distracted and/or frustrated easily so it would have to be a well made unit with all the parts. If I can spread the parts out on a bench and put in a couple of hours a night without having to stop and run for little bits and pieces that the manufacture left out I can do that. (I used to build R/C cars back when all you got was a box full parts and you had to build it yourself. My friend even bought one and I put it together for him). One thing that bothers me about DIY kits is the prices... buy this amp for $1000 or save some money and get the kit for $900 (?)

Let's talk tubes!
In order of preference I'm thinking
(Power) KT88 6550 2A3 300B 6L6 6V6 - I haven’t listened to all of these so I am open to suggestions.
(Preamp) Don't know, give me some suggestions, what's hot? Most of what I have seen is 12A(?)7

Speaker recommendations are appreciated also.

Thanks,
Scott

sand_man · 07:48 AM

Oh man...where to begin? Let's just say that the rectangular German "Euro" tag on the front of my 930 reads "KT88-EL34"! I've subscribed to your thread, but will need some time to research my old Internet bookmarks and links.

I've owned some pretty amazing equipment over the years! Both solid state and tubes. Needless to say, my tube gear will need to be pried from my cold dead fingers! TUBES ROCK!

After years of battling the dreaded audio-spiral and audio-nervousa illnesses, I've actually resorted back to what once was my tried and true "back-up" system:

-NOS Conrad Johnson Premier 11A Tube amp fitted with vintage Golden Lion KT-88 output tubes (that cost an absolute fortune).
-NOS Conrad Johnson Premier 10B Tube preamp with phono section all driven with vintage GE and Telefunken tubes.
-Harbeth 7ES2 loudspeakers - The single most satisfying speakers I've ever owned.

Granted this equipment was expensive and beyond your current budget, but deals can be had. I was fortunate in that I was able to find new un-opened un-used examples of my CJ gear...that was/is no longer being manufactured.

Here is a good site for shopping used gear:
http://www.audiogon.com/

I'll post more later.

sand_man · 09-16-2006, 07:51 AM

By the way...I like your exercise in spending as little as possible! That's a great goal, and the challenge is indeed worthy! Don't be fooled by packaging!

sand_man · 09-16-2006, 08:06 AM

If you're looking used, here are some tube brands that are good to know (in no particular order):

Audio Research
Cary Audio
Conrad Johnson
VTL - Vacuum Tube Logic (David Manley's old company)
Rogue Audio
Sonic Frontiers (no longer being manufactured)
Anthem (a cheaper division of Sonic Frontiers)
Jolida (very afforadble)

I list these because on the used market (Audiogone)these represent a good value.

My CJ gear has been BULLET PROOF!!!! I bias the tubes every once and awhile and just enjoy!

sand_man · 09-16-2006, 08:10 AM

Another mantra to live by: if you have 1 Watt of crappy sounding power due to a *****ty audio circuit design, why do you want 500 crappy watts???!!! In my experience less is more! My preamp has two knobs, two buttons, no remote, and one LED!

rouxroux · 09-16-2006, 08:11 AM

In that price range, I'd suggest the following: Build yourself a little Bottlehead "Foreplay" preamp then mod the Hell out of it. As far as an amp, find a nice old Dyna Stereo 70, then mod again (many folks like Van Alstine) have retrofit boards to bring the circuitry into a more "modern mode"...Doing these 2 projects, you'll have enough $ left for a decent pair of speakers.

rouxroux · 09-16-2006, 08:17 AM

I did this exact thing on one of my secondary systems and have a blast playing with it:

beepbeep · 09-16-2006, 08:21 AM

Great topic! I am a strong believer that 99% of sound quality depends on loudspeakers and amplifier.

Good sounding audio doesn't have to be expensive. There are really really good solid-state Power amps from 70's that sound fantastic. Those are mostly hi-end attempts by mid-tier companies (Philips, Sony etc.) and can be had really cheap.

I suggest spending 60-70% of budget on loudspeakers, rest on amps and reproduction equipment.

For now, I use a simple home-built 4 x EL34 poweramp without a pre-amp, just a volume knob. It's connected with a straight cable into CD-player.

scottmandue · 09-16-2006, 08:21 AM

BTW I was a subscriber to Glass Audio and Vacuum tube Vally. I know there are great NOS tubes still out there but to keep my budget down I will probably go with Russia/Chinese tubes (at least to start with, can always upgrade those at a later date)

Also to keep the price down I'm looking at a CD player that has a tube section as the only sound source. Now that I think about it it would be possible to run such a CD player direct into a power amp thus saving the price of a preamp (for now). The idea being to add a preamp and record player later to keep initial cost down as in KT88 power amp+CD player+speakers for $2000.

I presume my Altec Lansing A-7's are too big for the room seeing as you have to be standing thirty feet away from them before they start to sound good.

scottmandue · 09-16-2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beepbeep
I suggest spending 60-70% of budget on loudspeakers, rest on amps and reproduction equipment.

I see you already beat me to the CD direct to power amp scenario

Any speaker recommendations?

creaturecat · 09-16-2006, 08:29 AM

check this out:

http://www.space-tech-lab.com/Products.html

beepbeep · 09-16-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
Any speaker recommendations?

That's up to your preferences.

I really like electrostatic speakers. Magneplanars or old Quad ESL's can be found cheaply. They need lot's of punch to move though so it might be out of your budget if you plan to feed them with tubes.

My suggestion (most sound for the buck, screw the bling):

old used and rock-solid state 70's solide state Philips 2 x 200W sinus into 8 ohms brick feeding a couple of Magneplanars + good woofer.

scottmandue · 09-16-2006, 10:18 AM

Always wanted a set of Magneplanars but as you said with a low watt low budget project I'm aiming at I don't think they fit (although they may be interesting as the two front speakers in my home theater setup).

So far what I am seeing in a American/Canadian KT88 or 2A3 power amps are running around $1000+ which doesn't leave much budget for speakers/CD player.

Compared to the Chinese amps running $400 + $300 shipping.

Rondinone · 09-16-2006, 10:52 AM

I'm no expert, but I have a 1959 Knight component system that uses the 12ax7 preamp tubes, which I buy from china, and 6l6gc main amp tubes. I prefer svetlana for the 6l6's. This was apparently the standard design for knight. I see knight components on ebay for practically nothing.

sand_man · 11:35 AM

For a small output tube amp, that I think you can purchase in various states of completion, these guys had some interesting stuff when I was building kit components:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm
I think some of their amps ran as single ended triode...class A.

Also, one their models had a built in volume control.

ruf-porsche · ruf-porsche's Garage

How do you keep the equipment from sliding off the shelves?

LOL

rouxroux · 09-16-2006, 12:52 PM

I remember a bar back in my college days that would always mount their Christsmas tree upside-down from the ceiling.

(I've always considered myself a conservative, but I can see my listening choices are leaning to the left)

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

Sounds like you have a few brand names in mind, perhaps even model numbers if you already have prices. One of the best overall audio forums is the Tube Asylum, which is part of the Audio Asylum. They have an excellent search engine; you may want to make sure you are in the right category first though.

The reason that you really need to do your homework is that many of the really cool looking and very cheap Chinese stereo equipment is crap. While others are dependable, considering the price. Still others aren’t so cheep but are highly regarded.

Link:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html

May I suggest horn speakers if you desire something more exotic than what everyone else has? Great with low powered tubes I hear. You might want to build your own, I seen some home built folded horns that look great.

Horn picture thread:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2598

Tube picture thread:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2496

Various speakers (not home-built):
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2438

My system has a tube amp and preamp with tube phono section matched up with hybrid electrostatic speakers. This combination because of power requirements is out of your price range, hard fought to make it sing on budget even when buying everything used.

My system (with pictures):
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531

Edit:
Bonus link, Turntable photos:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2653&page=1&pp=15

scottmandue · 09-16-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kach22i
The reason that you really need to do your homework is that many of the really cool looking and very cheap Chinese stereo equipment is crap. While others are dependable, considering the price. Still others aren’t so cheep but are highly regarded.

Yes I know I have heard some good and bad reports about Chinese audio equipment, maybe the folks at Audio Asylum could give me some names so I know what to look for.

I have looked at AA but I'm not too fond of their BBS format.

I found a Canadian company that sells tube amps on EBay but I don't think they have any SE stuff.

Right now I am leaning toward a low watt amp and single driver high efficiency speakers.

http://www.eddiecurrent.com/mothaudio/cicadahi.html

kach22i · kach22i's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by scottmandue
Yes I know I have heard some good and bad reports about Chinese audio equipment, maybe the folks at Audio Asylum could give me some names so I know what to look for.

I have looked at AA but I'm not too fond of their BBS format.

I have typed in "Dared" and "Shandling" in their SEARCH engine before.............it does not take long, just get the spelling right.

Just like in the Pelican forum, do a search prior to posting.

EDIT:
I went to that website, cool speakers.........never heard of them.

The "Lunch Boxes" I have never seen before either - so cute.

http://www.eddiecurrent.com/