You think this ain't gonna play out by the '08 election? Jeb ain't running either.

Frum left his speechwriting job in 2002 and since then it's been Mike Gerson, who just left a few weeks ago. No doubt, Frum still has friends in the WH and he is a bright guy. But remember he's out to sell books and get invited on talk shows and he certainly isn't privy to the real classified stuff (anymore).

I understand your point; but consider what our current policy has done for us and worse the actions of the Muslims done for them?

Ask yourselves:

Why does this situation even exist?

You might be surprised at the answer.

P.S. All you folks advocating war with Iran, please report to the nearest recruitment center tomorrow morning. Your Country will be needing your services.

Just nuke em. Think this won't work? Try it and see what happens. One of them threatens us, nuke them too. The ONLY way to fight a war. Otherwise forget it. Come back when we get serious.

As to conventional war, it would be stupid as we would lose a lot of troops. But is the US strung out to far? Give me a break. We haven't even had to give up a star bucks, we haven't changed a single thing in our lives, we could fight on 10 more fronts like we have and not even affect our economy.

This makes me wonder a bit. The only effective weapons the Militant Islamic Fanantics have are suicide bombers and the world media. We need to change the game. Maybe tactical nukes, or the type that penetrate deep into the ground before exploding, would be one way for us to use one of our advantages. I like the idea of the deep penetrators, which would most likely keep any fall out to a minimum.

Of course the world media would crucify us if we do this.

Just what has it done for us? No attacks on US soil? A vibrant ecomomy? Which effect are you talking about?

maybe the effect, that you lot are living in a kingdom of fear?

fear or the fact that there's a lot of bigmouthing pussies on a forum , instead of signing up for active duty ??

see , i don't need to do anything to backup my claims, i can stay put and not sign up, but all you war talking bunch , different story isn't it?

didn't you guys go in , because the head honcho over there "tried to kill Dubbya's daddy" and "was supporting Terrorists" and "was actively working on WMD's" , "threat to America"

aah , i get it , all the other coverstories have been blown , so it's time to call it "liberate the civvies", which also is a handy one, cause now you can pull the sad little puppy thing about "we rescued them and now they boo us... boooo hoo hoo "

seriously guys, at what point are you guys ever going to admit that it was a screwup by your fearless leader, count your losses , and evacuate like you did in Saigon ?? how much more GI's need to return in a body bag? how many more collatoral damage to the innocents over there???

i've said it before, and i'll say it again

you cannot win from an enemy who is willing to suffer twice as hard as you are willing to take yourself... an enemy that win's morally in his home region , no matter what he does , no matter what you do, because either he becomes a martyr , or he clips one of you...

the only solution , is to make yourself less of a target
to get out of the hornets nest

The neocon's continual wail about what "those people" are doing "to us" is in reality a barefaced screed of what they're really like. As Tom DiLorenzo so eloquently put it today, *'Vote for Me . . . and for World War Three'

Can someone give this young man a lift down to the recruiting center? I'll spring for gas and lunch.

The terrorist faction of Islam has done it to us. Not sure if everyone has forgotten but lets see...

1. WTC 1
2. WTC 2
3. Spain
4. Bali
5. London
6. India

Is that enough or do I need to list a few more?

Ghandi's followers now have the bomb, as do their enemies, the Pakistanis. Seems that non-violence but holding a big stick (nuke weapon) works very well. I like your idea!

You forgot to list the 80 years of US government murders and meddling that brought on the above, eh, Joe?

It's really something to see these feckless neocons attempt, still, to state that these muslim fanatics "just came out of nowhere" to harm Americans.

America and Americans are well passed believing such tripe, Joe.

Fast, your a few cards short of a full deck. If the US government is an illegal govt. then the retirement check U get from them is illegal to. So send it back if U don't like it. Me thinks U protest too much. Besides whatever happens your on the same ship as the Libs, Conservatives and everybody in between. So it doesn't fking matter what U think, those people in Washington represent U to the world....Oh NO mr Terroorist please don't kill me, the US govt is illegal".

Van Damme....What makes U think that your not going to go down with the the USA. Hate to tell U but your included on the Islamic Jihads list to...


If the USA attacks Iran, all the Shi!te Militias will rise up and attack American Forces in Iraq. As I stated in another thread we could very well lose an Army or be faced with a Dunkirk type of situation. US Airpower would be our saving grace, because that would be able to keep them off of us long enough.

what makes you think that?

Your in RANGE of Teheran...your head is directlyon the block and your the New Hostage....a Dane writes a Cartoon and look what happened...U better start learning the Koran, cause they are taking U over.

big deal i grew up in range of thousands of nukes
didn't bother me one bit...

besides, the Iranians can't reach western Europe, they can barely reach Greece

and i'm fairly convinced that they would probably think nuking Holland would be a waste of nuke, they'de rather send it to Israel...

So did Americans...and whether you admit/know it or not it DOES effect U.

What I find interesting is that we (the US) feel we have to right to tell other countries whether or not they can possess nuclear weapons while we sit on enough warheads to destroy the world.

Iran is going to forge ahead with whatever their plans are regardless of what we say. Just as we listen to world opinion when we make decisions to invade other countries.

The only real value of nuclear weapons is as a deterrent. You really can't use them. Do we fear that Iran will use them unilaterally or do we fear that if Iran develops the capability, our ability to do whatever we want in the region will be impacted? I'm afraid it is the latter.

I think the best solution for the US is to make sure that Iran fully understands the gravity of their decision. Calmly point out that if they develop this capability and use it against us (on even a small scale), we will reduce their entire plot of land to glass. We don't care if it is at the hands of a terrorist or as an official act of the Iranian government.

Mike

IROC ...Tom Friedman of the NY Times has said the same thing. Send them a note saying go ahead and make your bomb but if you use it we know where you live.

please, effect me , off course it does
just like the rain effects me when i'm driving my car , but it doesn't mean i'm afraid to drive when it's wet now does it

but again tabs, as mentioned earlier in the thread
it's so easy to talk war when your just typing on your keyboard, letting others do the dirty work and the dying right?if you're so convinced about things, go sign up instead of bigmouthing on the forum all the time...

i'll help you out a bit

http://www.goarmy.com/nfindex.jsp

SAHARA
us army recruting station
557 e sahara ave
las vegas, NV 89104
702 - 733-6770

knock yerself out, send us a picture from your foxhole

I like Mike's approach, we are bogged down playing diplomat, parent, brother & sister to all. In the meantime we have little or no control over our children (Dem/Repub and the other misch mash ).
If you want it for 'lights' fine..realize if you screw up..we will be the last ones leaving the building, and we will turn out the lights for good.
Rika

U act like Your all safe in Rotterdam from the Jihad. Your Not, your more at risk than the Continential US, cause they can reach out and touch you.

I'm the one who has been saying its Check Mate time for the USA, we've lost, Cause any move America makes is more than likely catastropic. Bin Laden is sitting in his cave clapping his hands with glee, the only downer for him is that the Sh!!tes are the ones who come out on top and not the Sunnis.

GW in 2007 may just say, " Fk it, I'm screwed anyway U wan a cut it so I might as well go ahead and take the SOB Iranians out."

OR

GW in 2007 might say, "I've had enough grief, why bother, let the next Prez deal with it, we'll just play this diplomacy game out till I'm outa office.."

Then in 2008....The new Prez will fulfill her campaign promise to bring the boyz home from around the world. Telling the world, "Clean up your own messes, we ARE DONE."

Then the world will see the Europeans ***** and pee themselves at the same time....Bin laden will proclaim the Jihad Victorious....all the while Koran sales go through the roof in Europe.

Let me be the one to inform you that both England and France have independent nuclear forces, complete with delivery systems that can reach the entire mideast without problem. Germany could develop such a system in short order if they so desired.

In short, europe has all the deterrent against nuclear attack they need for the forseeable future.

RIKA...The USA is not ONLY playing the game for imposing our will. This train of thought is, America is "BAD" LIberal BS. Besides NAME ONE COUNTRY in the history of the world that wasn't looking out for its interests #1. In Evolution its called Survival....

The more people with their hands on Nukes the more likely somebody will use one in a fit of pique. Since the Iranians have demostrated that they don't play by the rules they have been deemed to be very dangerous if they get their hands on Nuclear weapons. That is the REAL REASON for concern. The USA wishes to avoid them reaching out and touching America.

i never said i was safe(r) here, i just said i'm not bothered by it

if i'de calculate risks, on any given day,i think getting "snuffed by a terrorist" would not be in the top 5

not in any particular order

getting run over
getting mugged
accidently tripping, and taking a fall , breaking my neck
high speed mishap in either of my cars
my cat mistaking me for prey (he's stupid you know)
bad dutch cuisine
Stingrays
...

if you gotta go , you gotta go, no point moaning about it
and i sure as hell refuse to live in fear of every little thing that might kill me.

signing off from this thread, cause frankly , the neocon repuhblicrap stuck FUD record is boring me just as much as the islamofascist rhetoric crap, and if i have to point at which is worse, i'll say loose the FUD , and the islamocrap will get lost by itself...

They will be forced to walk the walk and NOT Talk and Talk anymore, cause they will be responsible for their own defence. Thats the whole point....the Europeans will have to take care of Iran....if they don't they might as well learn how to face East towards Mecca 3 times a day.

While I think there's little risk to any of europe from Iran; they (the european nations) need to assist the Serbs in getting the muslim Albanians completely out of Kosovo. Maybe out of Albania as well. Send them all to Chechnya.

When U were a kid, U watched Cartoons instead of reading European History. Those Islamos are worse than Jehovah Witnesses...they just don't take no for an answer. It took until 1492 to get the Moors (Islamos) outa Spain. Dude once you get those Islamos all wound up the only way to stop em is with the sword.

And Europe will become the NEW Israel in the eyes of the Iranian Islamos.....if they even think about getting Muslims outa Kosovo.

What did the Iranians do when that Danish Cartoon came out, the Pope made a critical remark, Salmon Rasidi wrote a book.... they had a kneption fit..&..put ole Salmon on a Death List....

U think your dealing with rationality in the Islamos....

As distasteful as this would be, I think this is only real answer. Iran has to understand (like we and Soviets did 20 years ago) that once you push that button, it's all over. None of this "slap on the wrist and wait out sanctions and thumb your nose at the UN" for ten years. It's all *over*. In that scenario, Iran would have everything to lose and very little to gain. They can't hit the CONUS and wouldn't be able to for years and even if they did, the amount of damage they could inflict would be minor (relative to the *****storm we would rain down on them) and they would not be able to sit back and enjoy it because their entire country would be back in the stone ages.

I've even thought that this philosophy should be expanded to the "war on terror" (I hate that phrase). Basically, let the radical extremists make all the videos and burn all the flags they want. Make it clear to them that if they pull another WTC stunt, the world will not be big enough for them to hide. We could have done that with Osama 5 years ago but Bush got distracted... And then follow through on that threat when the time came. In the meantime, don't give them the satisfaction of impacting our lives on a daily basis (like taking drinks on aircraft, etc).

Mike

I think Musarraffa and Kadafi got the message. Believe it or not even Arafat, Iran and Syria got it...he knew that he couldn't play games anymore, and he didn't like it.

U see even these bad guys knew a real bunch of uncontrolable whackos (AL Qaeda) had arrived on the scene.

Only problem is that Terrorists have no return address to obliterate. They hide among the innocent. However if the innocent knew they had a bullseye target on them they might just throw the Terrorists out into the street.

Exactly. If the general population of Iran knew deep in their hearts that life as they knew it would end if their government uses a nuclear weapon against us, I would hope they would have something to say in the matter. Same for countries like Afghanistan harboring Al Qaeda. Make it known that we will come and not leave until they are gone. Easier said than done, I know, but our current tactics are only making things worse.

In the meantime, we stay out of their business and stop giving them a good reason to recruit more terrorists. Stop propping up puppet governments and manipulating politics in other countries for our own gain. Let Israel fight their own battles. Be involved economically but not militarily.

Mike

Another Dreamer

This would create an 18 " diameter hole 40 feet deep. They may discover oil there.

The US still has at least a small part of what makes it great. That part is that if we are TRULY threatened, we will respond with overwhelming, truly overwhelming, FORCE. There are many innocent Iranians, probably more pro us than not. They need to realize that their future is currently tied to the zealots. If they cannot assume control, it may be to late for the entire Iranian nation. We will not perish, they will, total complete annihilation.

Remember Dresden.

Can't happen again, well how did it happen in the first place?

I happen to know and like a few Iranians, but if its them or us, well I would not like to be them. God speed the good Iranians. Save yourselves. Time is short, very, very short. The time is NOW!

Snowman U get the idea....if it gets down to the nitty gritty America will do what it takes...inspite of Liberals and Million Man marches by the losers who populate the Liberal ranks.

People just don't understand that to keep this nation afloat and viable WE (that means everybody even the whining anti-war types) will torture, kill women and children and anything less that walks or crawls... Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no accidents.

My respond to Nostatic comments is considered sarcasm or "American Humor".

after reading the entire 4 pages on this serious dilemma, i feel we should just ship them all of our E-COLI SPINACH and let them CRAP themselves to death! no radiological cleanup for haliburton!

That would give a new meaning to "the fertile cresent".