Diesel to Vegtable oil conversions (Biodiesel?)

[TyFenn]

With all the talk of oil and gas prices around here I was wondering what the latest on this topic/subject is...

Any one having any experience? I heard it's cheap but the recycled oil makes your car smell like french fries for example. Or smell like whatever the oil was used for previously - is that true?

Sorry if this has been beaten to death. I just moved to San Diego and don't have much computer access yet...

[JTO]

TyFenn,
The chemical reaction that you need to do on fryer fat to make it a suitable fuel is not complicated, but not simple either. You need tanks, caustic, and a way to deal with the saponified crud (glycols, soaps, bits of fried chicken). My understanding is that most automotive and light truck diesels need a blended bio/dino diesel in order for easy starting, anti-gelling agents, and other issues associated with proper combustion.
I applaude those doing it and think we as a nation need to plot a course to achieve 50% of our fuel needs being derived from biological sources.
My $0.02
Troy

[island911]

Bio diesel still is costing more to produce than dino. (it is getting closer fast, though.)

most modern diesels run the stuff fine. The older ones often have problems of the bio acting as a solvent, softening old hoses, and dislogging chunks of sludge that have been forming in the dino-diesel tanks over the years.

Generally a gradual transition. . .20/80% Bio/dino is a good place to start.

[TyFenn]

I was thinking of picking up an old 1982 240D Benz and the guy who owns the car said it was relatively simple and once you get started almost free. He did say that I need the diesel to start the engine and once it's running switch tanks somehow...

Thought it might be a nice alternative to buying a tank of gas twice a week...

[turbo6bar]

TyFenn, check auction number 5996959950 on eBay. This is a hybrid between brewing biodiesel and running WVO straight. This is the first time I've seen it, but I think it would work. I sent notfarnow a Private Message. He runs WVO in his Volkwagens.

I'm still in the research phase, but it looks very promising. Diesel is approaching $3/gallon, and biodiesel costs well under $1/gallon plus your time. With the eBay kit, I think cost would be even less. For those of us paying for fuel with after-tax income, the savings can be significant.

[TyFenn]

Oh man, now you're talking. My allotted internet time at the library is almost up "...but you can be certain I'll be looking into it" - Ben Affleck in Good Will Hunting.

Thanks!

Have a great weekend!

[Joeaksa]

Have several friends who use it. Love it and while it does smell like french fries, works fine. Bet it will be used a lot more now that fuel is $3!

JoeA

[oldE]

One of my neighbors has converted 3 - 4 vehicles (VW diesels) so far. Problems? With no preparation except filtering, you can't start the cars on the Veg oil. Car must be started on diesel, then after 5 - 10 minutes of operation, during which heat exchange coils have heated the veg oil tank, you switch over to the warm veggie oil to run the car. 5 minutes before shutting down, switch back to diesel, so you're starting on the stuff which will flow without heating. He hasn't had it running through a Canadian winter yet, but I'll keep you posted.
Les

[notfarnow]

There are two ways of using waste vegetable oil as fuel in a diesel engine:

1) Modify the vegetable oil so that it can be run in your main tank, like regular diesel. This is what biodiesel is, and you'll often hear it described as B20, B50, B100 etc... that is the ration of biodiesel/regular diesel. B100 is 100% biodiesel. Biodiesel can be run as regular diesel with the following exceptions:
-Some older diesels will have a hard time, as Island911 described. Biodeiesel will really clean out your tanks & lines, and that will often plug filters, or worse yet damage injectors & injector pumps. Also, biodiesel tends to eat through rubber hoses & seals, causing fuel system problems. Neither of these issues tend to bother newer diesels.
-Biodiesel has a tendency to gel in the cold, often more so than straight vegetable oil. This means you may have to heat your fuel system in colder climates.

2) Modify the car, so that it can run straight vegetable oil as fuel. In order for vegetable oil to burn properly, it needs to be heated to about 70* Celcius (sorry, that obnoxious metric/imperial barrier). This means that you can't (or shouldn't) start a cold diesel engine on vegetable oil, hence the need for 2 tanks. So, as Tyfenn described, you start the car on diesel, and once it's warmed up you switch to vegetable oil. Most people heat the vegetable oil with coolant heat, and use common fuel switching valves from dueal tank trucks. Depending on your climate, you may also want to use a 12V heater to boost the temperature, as long as your alternator can handle the additional 30amp draw.


I've never touched biodiesel, mostly because in my climate I'd have top heat the fuel system anyway, so I figured it would be easier to go whole-hog and do a vegetable oil conversion. I've converted my old 87 Jetta (RIP, after 596000 kms), my 96 Jetta , and my dad's 1981 Mercedes Benz 300SD . I've been doing it for 3 years now, and have logged about 35 000 miles on vegetable oil, and my father has done about 15000 miles since I converted his car in the fall. I have never -not once- had trouble, not even so much as a plugged filter. I am very, very (very) careful about filtering my oil.

You'll hear horror stories about clogged injectors, blown injection pumps, etc... but it's almost always someone who either hasn't filtered the oil carefully, or hasn't heated it enough.

One thing to keep in mind about Mercedes diesels... they seem to be an exception when it comes to the need to heat the oil. Many people run 50/50 diesel/vegoil in their main tank unheated. That is obviously climate dependant.

As a resource, check out this site:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums
Lots of help there, some great FAQ's and some VERY knowledgeable folks. The obvious BBS rules apply, search first, ask later... they are getting swamped with newbie questions, especially with the recent spike in interest.

OldE, who's your neighbor? He doesen't live in Truro, does he?

[notfarnow]

FWIW, my car doesn't smell like french fries. I get my oil from a local chinese restaurant, so it smells like a Combo #3.


I ran oil from a seafood place... once.

[Wrecked944]

Watch this forum in the near future. My buddy just bought a 1984 Mercedes Turbo diesel specifically so he and I can perform "medical experiments" using biodiesel. We plan to make it in my basement using instructions published in Make Magazine. He is very busy with work right now but we hope to begin the project in a week or two and I plan to document it here in OT.

Also, a pelican member named Dean has been running his VW TDI's and a Cummngs truck on bio for quite some time and has also chipped and replaced the injectors for maximum perforance. Those mods weren't necessary but Dean has mad hot rodding skills.

If we can figure out how to run the Mercedes on bio through our cold New England winters, then I plan to buy one for myself for commuting.

[notfarnow]

Janus,

If you're in a cold climate, you may want to seriously consider doing a SVO (straight vegetable oil) conversion. That way you don't have to worry about biodiesel cold-start issues, as you'd be starting the car on diesel, the switching to vegoil once warm. Just a thought.

If you do decide to run biodiesel, it's a good idea to put a cheap, disposable fuel filter just before the standard Mercedes fuel filter. That way, if the biodiesel loosens up any sludge, gunk & cack (my nanny's term) you can easily swap in a new filter. Keep some on hand for the first month.

[Wrecked944]

Thanks for the advice. I'll be at the parts store this weekend and will be certain to stock up on filters. Is this because the bio will tend to clean out the system?

As for winter, we will do a conversion only as a last resort. My buddy and I are ubergeeks and we dig the challenge of trying to run the car on bio without mods. So to this point,. we are still searching and googling to try to find some sort of relatively available additive that can prevent jelling. No luck yet but a lack of luck has never stopped us before.

BTW - I sent your website to a colleague who is interested in bio and it opened up a whole new avenue of exploration for him.

[pwd72s]

One little problem here guys...based on the best info I have, biodiesel cars will NOT be able to comply with the recent emissions standards adopted by all 3 west coast states.

[Wrecked944]

No worries about emissions. Running bio doesn't require engine mods. So you can gas up with bio or diesel depending on your mood. Throw in a tank of diesel on inspection day and then switch back to bio after you get your sticker. Our fall back position on the Mercedes is to run it on regular old diesel in the winter. I think that is what Dean does.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by JanusCole
Thanks for the advice. I'll be at the parts store this weekend and will be certain to stock up on filters. Is this because the bio will tend to clean out the system?

Exactly. Tapping a vacuum guage into the fuel line is VERY helpful too... it'll let you know when your filter is plugging up.

You know, in the meantime you can always run a diesel/SVO blend, then once your biodiesel is in production, use that.

In the winter use a 50/50 diesel/SVO mix. Check out that forum link, some guys are having great succes with a 75% SVO / 25% regular gas mix.

Another winter tip: make sure you have good glow plugs, a good battery & starter and a clean fuel filter. That will take care of the vaste majority of cold-start issues.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by pwd72s
One little problem here guys...based on the best info I have, biodiesel cars will NOT be able to comply with the recent emissions standards adopted by all 3 west coast states.

Really? Anything I've read has demonstrated a dramatic reduction in emissions, especially when compared against diesel.

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.pdf

Emission Type (B100 compared to regular diesel)

Regulated
Total Unburned Hydrocarbons -67%
Carbon Monoxide -48%
Particulate Matter -47%
Nox +10%

Non-Regulated
Sulfates -100%
PAH (Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) -80%
nPAH (nitrated PAH’s) -90%
Ozone potential of speciated HC -50%

EDIT: Keep in mind we're only talking about tailpipe emissions here. I've never seen any documentation that considers oil refinery emissions.

[Wrecked944]

Hey I hope I'm not hijacking if I ask if anyone knows about running on ethanol? If gas lines get long and gasoline supplies vanish, I am thinking of pouring in some grain alcohol (okay, maybe not from Discount Liquors but you get the idea). Might be pricey but if there is no locally available gas, cost won't matter. I checked a website about doing an ethanol "conversion" but it mostly involved advancing the ignition timing and using hotter plugs (which my 944 already has ).

[pwd72s]

There you guys go...foolishly thinking that Government is being logical when it imposes it's regulations. There is a recently opened bio diesel plant in Portland, OR...among those asking our governor to NOT join Washington & California in adopting the new emissions standards? The bio diesel folks. Older cars adapted to the fuel are possibly exempt...to build a new car meeting these standards that uses bio diesel? VERY difficult....so, how many will now be willing to invest in producing bio diesel commercially if California bans it by not allowing new cars capable of burning it into the state? (edit) Oregon's Governor pushed the legislation through...it's aimed towards hybrid technology...common sense, as usual, takes a back seat...

[speeder]

I'm buying an F-250 powerstroke that I plan on running on liposuction fat. Endless free supply, not sure about the smell though.