"please don't trot out the entropy argument...asked and answered."

OK. Seems odd, but then again, so am I....never heard an answer that satisfied me anyway....

"for those that believe otherwise, well, they wont be too disappointed when they find out, cause they'll be dead."

I quote Pascal...

“When I see the blind and wretched state of man, when I survey the whole universe in its dumbness and man left to himself with no light, as though lost in this corner of the universe, without knowing who put him there, what he has come to do, what will become of him when he dies, incapable of knowing anything, I am moved to terror, like a man transported in his sleep to some terrifying desert island, who wakes up quite lost with no means of escape. Then I marvel that so wretched a state does not drive people to despair.”

And with that...I exit this thread...

Dennis

Facinating POV

Z, am I reading this right? Folks who don't believe in God SHOULDN'T want to help others? FWIW, I went to a catholic high school in the 80's. I'd wager 25%, and that's probably conservative, of the kids there were total crap humans, guys who lied and cheated their way through life, drank, drugs, smoked, took advantage, abused, but still had the nerve to judge me cause I didn't go to Sunday service or believe in God. I see this everyday in my adult life too. Are these folks better off than I because they repeat the words, go to service, and tithe, yet... I live my life closer to the healthy teachings of the bible yet have zero ties to a religion and do no believe in a God? Tell me how this plays out at the pearly gates...if they exist?

"And then the witch doctor
He told me what to do

He said that

Ooo eee,ooo ah ah ting tang
Walla walla, bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang
Walla walla bing bang...
Ooo eee ,ooo ah ah ting tang
Walla walla ,bing bang
Ooo eee ooo ah ah ting tang
Walla walla bing bang "

dmoolenaar; that's great that you lead such a balanced life. I'm sorry to hear about your class mates. To answer your question from my understanding of Christianity.

No, absolutely not. Assuming for the sake of discussion that God will be there to meet them at the end of their life, he will be no more accepting of them they they have been for God, or God's teachings. Jesus made the very clear point that just going through the motions gets a person nothing. It's what's in their heart that matters. As you quickly discerned, chances are those folks are not on the right path.

Since you do not believe in God, chances are you'll get what you expect in the afterlife (assuming once again for the sake of discussion that there is one). Since you don't believe in God, you've forsaken the opportunity to exist together with God, in a state of love after you die. Any post death existance will be empty. Now if deep down, you have doubts and maybe do believe in God, or are unsure, but you still have lived in accordance with his teachings, have tried to be a good person, loved others as yourself, are genuinely repentant of your screw-ups, etc, etc, then it will be up to God to determine your soul's fate. God can see into your spiritual heart and will recognize if you are a believer or not.

Re: Man Created God
 

So based on this line of thinking, the difference between mankind and anything else is...nothing.

Have a great day! SmileWavy

Wayne C.

Wow, what a fine example of, well, nothing of any moral value. Thanks for sharing Wayne.

It's the logical conclusion, not trying to be mean, but it is. Also, moral values don't mean anything either if there is no God.

Don't you come to the same conclusion? If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong and nothing of value. I can't see any other conclusion.

Wayne

Hey, you called the guy dog poop. Is that Christian?

I can't think of what I did wrong, just taking a statement to the logical conclusion.

Heck, if there is no God, then he won't (shouldn't) be offended anyway.

Wayne

I wholeheartedly encourage you to invest some time studying logic and attending your place of worship to understand all the ways you went wrong on your series of posts related to calling alf (Alfred) dog poop. I hope it doesn't take you too long to have a breakthrough.

I have. Can you give me one example of how I went wrong?

But, since you are offended, I will edit my statement to be more generic.

Wayne

I told ya before and I'll tell ya again how it happened.
It was a bunch of guys setting around a table a long time ago getting drunk and trying to figure out a way to get power and riches their own way, since the kings, queens & dictators already pretty much had a monopoly on it. They figured out they could start religion and take advantage of people's natural superstitions and fear of the unknown. The could create a structure independent of monarchs and dictators and still enjoy all the benefits of power, prestige and riches. Plus they could promise something they would never have to deliver on. Life after death!

right and wrong has NOTHING TO DO WITH FAIRYTALES
but far more belivers in fairytales will chearfully screw others
and tell you what good people they are while they do it
then ask their invisable imaginary friend to forgive them
a fat lot of good that does the people they screwed

belivers are immoral or amoral
but love to tell you how good they are
the fool thumper my wife worked for sure did that
I allways say run when a beliver tells you how moral they are
as I know a screwover is comeing behind the boast

Someone called me dog poop? Well it has been a while since elementary school :) I missed it since your post was edited, please unedit.

It is my understanding that under Christian doctrine man is created in the image of God, not just Christian men mind you, all men. So, did you just call your God dog poop ;) How is that for twisted logic.

BTW, to a Buddhist it is not really an insult to call him dog poop, because our physical bodies have all been poop at some point.

Wayne
Why would morality not mean anything without a divine being? Is man moral only because of the fear or love of a divine being that enforces morality?

Alf,

Yep, I called you dog poo man, sorry, but I did. As I said, just taking the thought 'there is no god' to the final logical step, i.e. we are no different than anything else on the planet. BTW, if there is no god, I’m dog poo too.

The reason I think morality can not have meaning without a divine being (God) is there is no source of morality without a divine being (here I mean the God of the Bible). Where is the “authority� of determining what is moral without God? How did it come to be? How do we “know’ it? Why does everyone have the same morals? Will morals change over the time?

For me, I do believe in the God of the Bible. And yes, you and I were created in His image so I really don’t think you are dog poo, or God.

Wayne C.

Wayne
I take no offense to you calling me dog poop. In fact, my dog's poop fertilized the pear tree in my yard and i ate many pears from that tree, so i am, in some way, made of dog poop :) Gave some to my neighbor too...

Now you raised a great point of discussion...

What is the source of morality?

That is worthy of another thread!

Alf, you're a good sport and I agree, discussing the source and true meaning of morality would be worthwhile.

v/r
Wayne C.

One way to look at it is that belief in god is literally "all in your head". Some people choose to believe in a higher power based on how they have been raised and their interpretation of the world around them, but the actual existence of this higher power exists only in their head. They refer to it as "faith".

In the end, there is no physical evidence for the existence of god(s). There is no evidence for the existence of any "afterlives". There is no evidence that any god(s) interact with our world in any measurable way. Does that mean that god(s) do not exist? No, but for those not pre-dispositioned to believe, there is no compelling reason to.

To many, the existence of god(s) is as real to them as anything else, but it is truly "all in their heads". Not to diminish the experience for those that have it, but not all people have it.

Mike

So, what some of you are saying is that morality cannot exist without God? Are humans that weak they cannot act in a noble manner without a God? Man, that says a lot about the race, doesn't it? In that case, we do not deserve to even exist.