Oil & this Email

hardflex · 01:00 PM

I got this as part of a Motorcycle group I'm in, and I thought I'd bring it up here, as it's basically saying new Oils aren't as good as the old ones.

I know for a while everyone was losing cams in their 914 rebuilds, Is this partly or mostly the cause of those problems? I know there are some good oil guys here and would like their comments.

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From another website comes this distressing news.

zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval was the major component to reducing engine stress and promoting long life. However, it seems this miracle product is also responsible for destroying the life of those precious catylitic converters and so has been gradually reduced or eliminated foe the good of the environment but at the cost of your engine.

A full description is given in the link below. Suffice to say that you must be very careful in the oil you use in your engine. Apparantly, those oils prepped for use in diesel engines are OK as these are non-API approved. Some oils are OK, such as Valvoline that is offering an "Off Road 20W-50". And Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.

Absolutely NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.

http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

cashflyer · 11-27-2006, 02:23 PM

First, my disclaimer: I am an Amsoil dealer and I use Amsoil products. Now, some info - take it with that grain of salt.

I think if you go to the oil company websites, you can request MSDS sheets from them for the products they sell. You may be able to check the zinc levels that way.

I use the AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil in my SC. It has 1675 ppm of "zinc, including zinc compounds".

Keep in mind that any oil which displays an API approval had to use the API approved additive package. Exceeding their approved levels of zinc and phosphorus compounds is not allowed. Certain Amsoil products are API approved. Others, like the racing oils, are not.

The Mobil website says, "All engine oils have an additive called ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) for wear protection. In general, heavy duty engine oils (truck oils like Mobil Delvac) have a higher level of ZDDP. Automotive engine oils generally have a lower level of ZDDP to protect catalytic systems."

The Spectro oil site says, "High levels of this additive are unnecessary for racing use. You see, these additives are proven to work with the same effectiveness regardless of the amount present in the oil! (so long as there is at least some ZDDP present at all times) Where the benefits of high doses of ZDDP are actually realized is in long-term and long distance use, ensuring that the oil never runs out of this critical additive."

hardflex · 11-27-2006, 02:39 PM

I was mostly concerned about Camshaft failures in newly rebuilt engines, as there was a rash of them some time ago, in 914 engines. At the time, lifters were getting the blame, and I just wondered if this change had much to do with it as the article seems to suggest. Would you say they're overreacting, then?

So what would you recommend as a "Break in" Oil, then?

The first synthetic oil I bought was Amsoil, before Mobil even had their synthetic out, as I recall. Good Stuff, made me a believer in Synthetics.

cashflyer · 11-27-2006, 02:48 PM

I would like to see some other input here, especially from Lubemaster, before I start sounding like I'm giving a sales pitch. Also, because Lube is legitimately "in the business" and not just some independent oil seller like me.

Although I have read some stories about excessive tappet wear and damage, I am not knowledgeable on the subject to the point that I would care to comment.

Regarding break-in oils...
Amsoil says that you can break in with their product with no adverse problems. In fact, Porsches, Covettes, and several others come from the factory with synthetic oil in them from day 1. However, many people point out that there is a difference between a factory new engine and an overhauled engine. It is my personal preference to break in an engine with standard mineral oil, then switch to a synthetic when I feel the rings have seated properly.

hardflex · 11-27-2006, 02:54 PM

I appreciate your candor, maybe Lubemaster will weigh in on this.

I've not been afraid to go synthetic very early in an engines life, and not seen any ill effects at all. My B4000 pickup went almost 340k without using any oil at all. Put Synthetic in the first oil change at 500 miles.

cashflyer · 03:06 PM

Well, I Googled to see what I could find. Apparently, the reduced ZDDP formulations are a problem with flat-tappet cams.

Hot Rod Magazine cites a few reasons, but reduced ZDDP seems to be high on the list.

And this write-up seems informative, too, citing info from Crane Cams, Castrol, and other sources.

Here's a chart showing the reduction in API approved levels over the past few rating changes.

hardflex · 11-27-2006, 05:54 PM

Is that chart for dyno oils only, and are synthetics affected the same way?

I think every car I own has a flat tappet camshaft.

Jandrews · 11-27-2006, 05:57 PM

On a related question...can you use "car" oil in a motorcycle, or do you have to use oil specifically labeled as motorcycle oil?

JA

Joeaksa · 11-27-2006, 08:20 PM

John,

Most oils are not type specific. That said I have seen several people take oil designed for airplanes and use them in air cooled cars.

Problem is that airplane engines run at a steady RPM for 90% of their life, not going up and down like a car does. As well they run at very low RPM's when compared to a car. Most airplane engines do not get over 2600 rpm's so a 911's engine going 6500 or a motorcycle going 10,000+ is a totally different matter.

I try to use what the maker recommends or if someone like Lubemeister comes up with something better do not mind trying it in the car.

cashflyer · 11-28-2006, 01:14 PM

The top 4 items on the chart are the API specified zinc and phosoporus content. It applies to any oil that bears that specification on the label. Manufacturers have a certain abount of leaneancy on the specified percentage to allow for manufacturing tolerances.

Oil for different purposes receive different specifications on their additive packages. All API ratings that start with an S are for gasoline engines. API ratings beginning with a C are for diesel engines. That's why the Shell Rotella can have higher legels of ZPh - because it is for a different purpose. The manufacturers say that their oil is tested for the purpose that they mark the oil for, and that you should not run diesel oil in cars, or car oil in bikes, etc. Some of this has to do with things like catalytic converter damage. And some of it has to do with marketing, IMO.