Kit Gun

[id10t]

joe - everything but upper reciever . for some reason the atf has the fal register the upper as opposed to the lower like the ar15..

m21 - thats just one from the web. mine is all assembled technically it is a stg58 clone (metric pattern) not a slr/l1a1 (inch pattern)

[tabs]

If I'm gona fk around with that kind O krap, its gona be an SR25.

[Joeaksa]

An old HK91/93 fan here but spent too much time with a MP5 to not include it in the mix.

[id10t]

joe - if only I had known. my local shop just had a new in original shipping box from HK 1984 (pre-any-ban) HK91A for sale... $2700. Probably worth it too.

[bigchillcar]

jer'miah johnson had hisself a hawken fitty cal'ber rifle...done got it from the frozed up hatchet jack who done livved wi't a female panther up in 'dem hills...she ne'er did get used to him..

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by tabs
Where is Jeff higgins when U need him...

Muzzleloaders are alot of fun to shoot. The recoil is more of push than a jolt. Its a slow ritualistic process to reload the gun, you might shoot 25 rounds in an afternoon. Its relaxing, U talk to people, people are always interested in what your shooting. Accuracy is just as good in a ML as a Centerfire rifle.

There are 2 main types of weapons Military and commercial. Generally the Military guns are going to be in the larger calibers, while the hunting/target types are going to be smaller.

I shoot orginal as well as replicas.

I'm right here, tabs. Beautiful rifle, and nice job on putting it together.

I used to love building the muzzle loader kits. I would generally build one every winter just for something to do. Yes, the level of work required to complete one varies tremendously with the manufacturer. Some have finished barrels and furniture, with fully inletted and shaped stocks. Others have raw castings, rough machined barrels, and a block of wood.

I find shooting black powder to be infinitely more pleasurable and relaxing than modern smokeless. Like tabs says, a day spent with a muzzle loader is spent at a much more liesurely pace, and a great deal of it is spent socializing. On top of that, it teaches you to really shoot. Every shot is near and dear to your heart, because it takes so long to prepare for the next one. Flintlocks teach attention to detail and follow-through like no other weapon. Gauranteed, a summer spent with one will make you a better shot.

The clean-up is not nearly so daunting as many of you think. Also, the change to some modern black powder substitute does not change the end-of-day clean-up proceedure one little bit. The substitutes allow you to shoot without the between shots bore swabbing, but that is about it. If your load is working properly with black powder, even that is less of an issue. I find original black powder to be more accurate and consistant than any of the substitutes anyway. Even with this sooty old stuff, I will have my muzzle loader, breach loader, or even revolver cleaned up faster than any of you can clean your smokeless centerfires. The revolvers, both cap'n'ball and .45 Colt or .44-40, are simply disassembled in a tupperware tub full of hot water and scrubbed with a toothbrush. I can do it in less than ten minutes and have it reassembled and oiled. Black powder fouling is not nearly as tenacious as smokeless and dissolves readily in plain old water.

While most of my hunting has been done with muzzle loaders from traditional round ball throwers to slug guns (even duck and goose hunting with a 10 guage side-byside front stuffer), my current black powder interests lie in target shooting with the breach loaders. Caliber of choice is .45, with the 2.1" and 2.6" chambers (aka .45-70 and .45-100). Locally we are shooting mid-range (500 and 600 yard) matches, with occasional long range (1,000 yard) events. These rifles, with lead bullets and black powder, will shoot scores in the high 90's on the standard NRA high power targets at those ranges. Iron sights only; no scopes allowed.

We have a couple of Canadians and a couple of Oregonians that used to regularly shoot muzzle loaders with us. They were very competitive, shooting Parker-Hale Witworth and Rigby .45 caliber target rifles. I haven't seen these guys at a match in a few years, but make no mistake, the front-stuffers are fully up to the task. Their only real drawback that I could see was the need to break position to re-load.

Anyway, this stuff is a lot of fun. In a different way than modern smokeless, which I also enjoy, but none the less a great deal of fun. Don't let the clean-up, supposed innaccuracy, or lack of power dissuade you from trying this. Oh, and one last thing - for God's sake, stay the hell away from those modern stainless steel, plastic stocked, Pyrodex pellet/saboted pistol bullet shooting abominations. They ain't the real deal. And always remember the immortal words of Steve Garbe, "smokeless powder is a passing fad".

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by id10t
joe - if only I had known. my local shop just had a new in original shipping box from HK 1984 (pre-any-ban) HK91A for sale... $2700. Probably worth it too.

My last HK93 was purchased in 1978 for $450. Kept it until the mid-80's (before the ban) and then traded it for a set of factory BMW motorcycle leathers.

Still have the leathers but only wish I could fit into them. Had I kept the HK would be a lot happier with it!

Joe

[tabs]

Jeff, I was hoping that U would be the one to say, "Hey wait a minute sumthin ain't right here."

Anyway I can't take credit for building that rifle. However Nathan Choate of Auburn, NY can...and he did it around 1870. The cleanness of line and fit and finish are really something to behold. His work was very similar to Morgan James and George Feriss.

I have seen pictures of targets, where the letter W was shot with 11 consequtive shots in the area the size of a 1/2 dollar at 220 yards with a muzzleloading rifle.

[Jeff Higgins]

It did look a little fishy, tabs, but who am I to question? It did seem an odd subject for a modern replica. I remember seeing some oddball rifles replicated years ago, some really obscure ones, but certainly not so much any more. There does not seem to be the demand for traditional muzzle loaders that there once was. Everyone seems to be happy with the Hawken knock-offs at best or the Knights and such.

You got me, but at least I can end my search. For me to build another one, it would have to be something unusual like this. The originals are out of my league, and I enjoy building the kits, but I certainly do not need or want some run of the mill mass produced replica. Here I was hoping you might have found some one making something unusual. You burst my bubble; my one faint hope. I'm crushed. So how does it shoot?

[NICKG]

ban? what ban....as i recall the ban eneded when bush did not renew it

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by id10t
m21 - thats just one from the web. mine is all assembled technically it is a stg58 clone (metric pattern) not a slr/l1a1 (inch pattern) [/B]

That's OK, when i first saw the shoulder stock i thought, "He has an M240!", but then i saw the forearm and realized it was a FAL.

Nice firearm man. Every one of her majesty's troops i've ever talked to rues the day it was replaced with that stupid bullpup POS they use now.

Originally posted by NICKG
ban? what ban....as i recall the ban eneded when bush did not renew it

I think the imported "assault weapons" are still banned from daddy Bush's 1992 gun ban.

[tabs]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
It did look a little fishy, tabs, but who am I to question? It did seem an odd subject for a modern replica. I remember seeing some oddball rifles replicated years ago, some really obscure ones, but certainly not so much any more. There does not seem to be the demand for traditional muzzle loaders that there once was. Everyone seems to be happy with the Hawken knock-offs at best or the Knights and such.

You got me, but at least I can end my search. For me to build another one, it would have to be something unusual like this. The originals are out of my league, and I enjoy building the kits, but I certainly do not need or want some run of the mill mass produced replica. Here I was hoping you might have found some one making something unusual. You burst my bubble; my one faint hope. I'm crushed. So how does it shoot?

The price on some of the orginals is less than or about the same as what U can buy or have a a replica built for.... Just add a 0 to the iniatial price I stated at the opening of this thread.