WW1 bomber identified
 

90 years after the facts, the WW1 reasearchers and historians are still going at it in my home town and it's surroundings...
every year the Flemish mud still releases


http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=GQU16LRSG

rough translation

Langemark-Poelkapelle

after long time puzzeling with pieces and airplane parts , Piet Steen has finally identified the wreckage as beeing from a German WW1 bomber.

Farmer Danien Parrein started the whole case in 1981 when he found fragments of an airplane while plowing.. Some thought it was the plane from French ace Georges Guynemer.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168333820.jpg
but recent research by Piet Steen , member of the local Georges Guynemer rememberance committe has now ruled out this possibility.


During a research visit at the french Musee de l'air et de l'Espace, in Paris, he asked specialist technician and had them look at pictures from the wreackage... they came to the conclusion it had to be a heavy German bomber..

Steen then went to the Royal Museam of Army and Warhistory in Brussels, where he found a resemblance with the Mercedes Type IVa engine , from a Gotha Bomber

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...3f/GothaG5.jpg

The research nearly came to a dead end, untill they found out that in 1918 , a Zeppelin-Staaken, with the same type of engine crashed in Westrozebeke, not far from the finding place... This then led the researchers to the Polish Air Museum in Krakau, where the last engine pod from a Zeppelin-Staaken was found.. Ingraves with markings , the last doubt was lifted, the wreck was a Zeppelin-Staaken RVI R34/16

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi....VI_photo2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi....VI_photo1.jpg


These German planes, had a wingspan of 42.2 meters, making them the larges planes used during WW1, only 18 were ever made, and they could carry 2 ton bombs , and operated over London and Northern France....

Steen and collegue Johan Vanbeselaere hope that this discovery leads to more historical finds and research regarding giant bombers...

Pretty cool story.

Interesting. Lots of old WW1 and WW2 stuff still being found in the last few years. Just found a massive bunker right off of the landing beaches in France last year. Been sitting un-disturbed for over 60 years but no one realized that it was there.

If its taking 90 years to find a the largest bomber in WW1 that crashed in the middle of one of the most populated parts of Europe, wonder how long it will take to find the WMD and Nuke reactor parts in Iraq?

sorry Joe, but that analogy isn't that good

for one thing, Westrozebeke was pretty much No man's land
few places on earth have ever been shelled so intensely as that patch of mud...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erial_view.jpg

which brings me to the second point... the land itself, was mud
anything in it, pretty much sank in the bottom
it's a known thing that that sort of land , like oceans , renews itself , upper layers take turns with lower layers, dunno how to explain this, but it just does , the land moves...(although i'm sure deserts have a similar movement)

3rd point is the construction of the plane itself, it was the largest wooden airframe known to man , untill Howard Hughest made Spruce Goose... combine this with point #1, and you'll understand that very little more then some nuts and bolts where found, they did not find a wreck in the sense that it still looked like an airplane...

especially #1 and #3 are important here...

i'll try and get some pictures of the find itself, this Johan Vanbeselaere is a relative, his the son of my Grandfathers youngest brother...haven't been in touch with him since he was my teacher when i was 14-15 ( he taught computer class).. but i know where i can find him...just sent him an email, if i don't get anything back, i'll pay him a visit when i go in a few weeks... at the wake for my recently departed Grandfather , Johan's father , had been telling stories bout the post war era, and i have an open invitation for more stories... and i was planning to take up the invitation...he's a great story teller...

Yes, I think we all wonder that.

But if the US invaded Belgium, deposed the govt, sent in search teams and offered millions of $$ in rewards, it could still only possibly find exactly the same number of ww1 bombers that are there to be found.

But ofcourse, its well known in informed circles that all the ww1 bombers were in fact secreted over the border to the Netherlands.

I knew it! Those sneaky Dutchies! ;) :D

Great threat Stijn. I look forward to updates as they become available. :)

svandamme;
When your relative starts telling their old stories, be sure to have some sort of tape recorder with you to record them. I wish I had done that with a number of my relatives, but hadn't. And now most of them have passed away, and they've taken the family stories with them. Especially those stories to a lot of the people and places that we still have pictures from.

well, i currently have a book on backorder, about the reconstruction of Ypres... written by the ex-husband of my neece, who works as a researcher in the In Flanders Fields Museum

haven't read it yet, but i'm pretty sure he did go around the old folks in our familly to get these stories recorded...

i understand your tip for having a recorder with me, but i would rather take mental notes, and write it down, something about going there with a recorder that creeps me out... feels impersonal , just like i'm just going there for his data, not his company.. i'm weird that way...


note
just finished his other book
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168350594.jpg

it's not what i call an exiting read in the sense of a good flowing story, but it's a very good historical work about Ypres, the War, and how the Menin Gate came about...and what the Menin Gate means...and what the Last Post really means...

for instance, Churchill himself, wanted Ypres to remain untouched, in ruins as a memorial, but the locals wouldn't let that happen..

Some Canadian General, was doing some ego tripping, running around without approval from his governement, in a way to try and get his memorial plans done..

Hitler came to visit the Gate twice...
the Pope came, the Queen of England, several times...Churchil, a long list of big names, they all came to my little hometown...it's only now that i left and moved to R'dam 5 years ago, that i realize it's significance... the sooner i move back, the better

Interesting and so sad, the combination of World Wars I & II led to the population shortage of the last 5 decades, which led to the encouraged immigration of "other people" to do the work, which will end up destroying europe utterly and completely. How soon will the Eiffel mosque construction begin I wonder?

One long look into Kosovo will remove all doubt.

if you don't mind, Pat, let's keep it ON topic...
just this once, no rants about "stuff"

i'm posting this thread, because there are lessons to be learned from WW1, especially WW1, because it was a stupid war, it didn't amount to anything other then big ego's getting their way with things.. and those who fought it, died thinking they fought the war to end all wars, that was the propaganda working, and it turned out to be a lie...to bad for the dead, no refunds for them...

so i'm trying to post a historical thread, with as little BS as possible, because that's the least I can do , to remember the poor sods that died in this way...

One owes respect to the living; but to the dead one owes nothing but the truth.
- Voltaire [Francois-Marie Arouet]

Just got an email back from Johan... superfast...

here's a link , to the press doc

http://users.telenet.be/mariehelenepetit/zep-sta/press-doc.htm

also explains what they found, and a lot of information regarding the plane, and even the burial places of the airmen aboard it...

there is also a link to a Flemish WW1 forum
unfortunately in dutch, but you can find a bunch of pictures of the plane itself, when it still flew
http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=8058

Johan told me , that he's also in a group working on reconstructing the remains of a MkIV British tank.. using a Bulldozer or something...



now i'm going to read it myself, amazing stuff

EDIT
extra info on the tank thing
they are currently raising money to reconstruct a MkIV Tank , around a Bulldozer, to put it on the center square of Poelkapelle, a little village not far from Ypres..

http://www.kbs-frb.be/code/page.cfm?id_page=127&ID=6748&Cnt=NL



this is a link to an english spoken forum discussing the tank cemetery, loads of old post war pictures with destroyed tanks all over the place, good pics to give you an idea of what was left of the area...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37500&st=0

Great Story!! Not only in the sense of public history but Family history also. Keep us informed.

here's the picture of the original find, from back in 1981...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168361774.jpg

caption says:

At Poelkapelle on the land of Daniel Parrein, at the Stadenroad 72, during plowing the wrek was found of a WW1 airplane. Along with his daughter Bernadette and holiday visiter Sami Dhaese, the farmer is showing the remains at the site"

the bigger article had a big Header

"Airplane wreck Georges Guynemer found??"

so Joe, as i mentioned earlier, they didn't find the biggest plane of WW1, they found a few remains of that plane... a lot smaller then the plane itself...

Reminds me of the 1913 Sikorsky Le Grand.

http://www.airventure.de/history3.html
http://www.airventure.de/historypics...y_legrande.jpg
http://www.airventure.de/historypics..._legrande2.jpg

I had the opportunity in August to make my second visit to areas in Belgium and Germany where my dad fought during '44 and '45. I primarily focused on the Huertgen Forest ("the death factory") and had a former Wehrmacht soldier as a guide for a portion of the visit. Within 10 minutes of arriving at one location in the forest, not only had I found the foxholes where Dad had been dug in, but also multiple pieces of shrapnel from tree bursts that had been lying right on the surface for 60+ years.

Live ordnance is still being found in the Forest, as well as German and American KIAs. Here's a pic from a private museum a local has set up in his garage

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168383171.jpg


and one of several German bunkers/pillboxes I visited

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168383408.jpg

cool thread, stijn.

that's great stuff Chris, wouldn't be that easy around Ypres,
it's more densely populated then say the Ardennes or closer to the German border, also different soil , mud,clay ,
And less fighting in 44 in our parts, so most of the gear is from 14-18 , giving it an even longer time for things to rot/sink away,

Despite that, it is still common for farmers to plow up ordenance, when it is plowing season , you can drive around the country roads, and if you look carefully , you'll find the odd shell next to a field, farmers simply haul em out of the mud, and lay them out for DOVO to pick it up.. DOVO is a military branch that takes care of old WW 1 or 2 ammo, depending on the type or size they will either detonated, or haul it away... the exiting part is when they find a seamine at the coast... those things give massive blast..

if you ever want to come visit again ... be sure to visit Ypres, i'll show you around , in my Porsche , good roads , or as we locals call em , de Rallyweggetjes (rally roads because of the yearly 24hours of Ypres rally driven there)

and not to far from it , is Eperleques.. le Blockhaus..V1-V2 facility.. 15 feet concrete walls, very impressive... the stuff you would see in movies, ...they droppeda 5-6 ton TallBoy on the roof, but it didn't penetrate...just dented the roof a bit... it was that tough...

Thanks, Stijn, I will gladly take you up on that offer!! I have a friend in Rotterdam who actually joined me for part of my trip through the Forest last August. Would love to visit Ypres.

Hope to return to the Huertgen this summer, in part because I may be able to help locate the body of a German KIA that my dad accidentally 'found' when digging a foxhole - I suspect he may still be there.

pic below is from the back yard of the fellow with the little museum. Marks the spot of an American KIA he discovered when doing some construction work a few years ago. Fellow was identified by dogtags and returned to the States.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168385343.jpg

please do , let me know a bit in advance, and i'll make time

Stijn;

Here's a site you might find interesting.

http//www.1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.

There is a thread under the heading "classic threads" called "Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe" that shows just how much lies just bellow the surface .



John

The wingspan of that WWI bomber is about 10 feet short of the wingspan on a 747. But the WWI bomber had two wings with that span. I also read that it took a ground crew of 43 to get the bomber loaded and airborne.

That airplane must have been amazing in its day. Heck, I bet the plane would be an impressive sight in this day and age.

Boezinge is a little area just outside Ypres, lot's of industry.. the Diggers have been active there, but some felt it was controversial, because they ... dig up a whole site... they are basically amateurs , not professionals, so some felt they were doing damage or whatever... that's somewhat blew over now, and they in fact work together with the In Flanders Fields museum...

it's rather a unique thing that they got permission , these days you can't simply go out and start digging , the ministry has to approve it , and will only approve a dig if there's an imminent threat of loss of artifacts.. such as big buildings with big foundations... such as in the industrial area of town...

that also explains the problem for Johan, even if he knows a place where a tank is stuck in the ground, chances of getting a permit to dig it out are slim to none... doesn't matter that it's to reconstruct, to make a memorial, a dig hardly ever get's permission these days...

check out this link... but be warned... it ain't pretty
uncensored WW1 pics...

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Weltkrieg_Rex/Weltkrieg_Rex_00.htm


or this one..

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Corpses/Corpses_00.htm

maybe that puts things in perspective, and help anyone understand why us Europeans are very hesitant towards rushing into a "war".. this was in our own backyard... not thousands of miles away on a different continent... there is a difference...

also keep in mind, that Censorship was huge during the war... these pictures are unique, and often taken at great risk of the one holding the camera... had to hide it , cause if found you did have a big chance of getting shot as a spy/traitor... human life wasn't worth much then... not even that of one's own nationality...

Stijn;

Yes, it was very interesting to watch that play out on the (70 page) thread.
Those guys are doing great work and very professionaly.
Seeing all that gives a better understanding of what those poor bastards had to endure.

And for those who think of the the French as surrender monkeys, a few of the pages and pics (or Alistair Hornes, " The Price of Glory" ) about Verdun or the Chemin des Dames would be a good education.

John

Here's another eye opener.

http://bac.d.free/guerre_14_18/

something wrong with your links JCF..


i was born on one of the major battlefields of WW1, never thought much about it growing up, but now, the more i read, the more i am disgusted about what happened, and even though it is terrible, and gutwrenching stuff to read, i have to read it... and the more i do , the more i loathe the glorifying of war

don't get me wrong, i do not diss those that are at the front of any war, i diss those who allowed things to escalate to that point...

If you look at the uncensored pictures, and then at the propagandised illusrations, you see how they managed to fool young men to sign up for death...


yet the same thing still happens , although more subtle
they still try to sweet talk the press, embedded reporters
they still try to get a less gruesome view out
they still sucker young men (and now women) to sign away the best year of their life, their sanity , or limbs with bull**** propaganda... now they even have Army's producing computer games to get kids hooked on glory before they have the sense to see the perspective s

and still the same deal, those who decide on wars, sit in comfi chairs... pushing around tactics and numbers and memo's... all from the luxury of "home", i'm not going to name anybody , i don't want this to become a political thread, it's a universal theme, happens in many countries...


it's sickening to see that human kind has still not figured out a way to deal with conflicting interests in sensible way...that in group we are still no better then a group of Chimps or Baboons, fighting for territory , resources , or just to proove a point...

OK, try ;

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/

http://bac.d.free.fr/guerre_14_18/

Stijn;

The "Classic Threads" heading of The Great War Forum is full of interesting things.
The one on the diggers at Boezinghe is there.
And another very poignant one is titled "look what I found in grandfathers locker"

Amazing stuff that makes it clear what human beings (and brings into relief the fact that they were people, not just names or pictures in a book) were forced to suffer and overcome during that most absurd and wasteful conflict.

John

great links John , especially that second one with all the pics... thanks a bunch !

Indeed.

That "Grandfather's Locker" thread is a slow disclosure of very emotive items stored in a German officer's locker. Stuff he sent to his young bride before he was killed and things his men sent to her after (including a very distraught letter describing how he was forced to shoot one of his own men during a desperate battle)

The son of that officer, as an officer in the WW2 Luftwaffe stationed in the area then tracks down the site where his father was killed . He happens to meet the (now old) daughter of the farmer in whos field the grandfather was killed.
She tells him of a German officers body that was buried in that field and later moved to a nearby cemetary when she was a child

THEN, the grandson (in the US military) years later gathers all the information together and provides it to the German War Graves Commision.

That grave, that was inscibed "an unknown German soldier" now bears
his grandfathers name.

there are still folks working on identifying the John Doe's around Ypres, even last year, they found 3 body's , and off the top of my head they managed to identify 3 German artillery men , simply by an insignia on their uniform , after 90 years in the mud...traced it back on records and now they have a grave with a name on it, i think they got repatriated, not sure...

I must have screwed this up somehow? I thought this was posted by the Zombie pandemic guy?
I read the footnote about needing a world wide Zombie pandemic and wondered why on earth would you say such a thing?:(
I can go though many reasons in my head, but think it might be rude to post such ideas WO first giving you or whoever, the chance to reply in his own words?
Sincerely,
Stewart.

Very cool story. Thanks for posting!

http://thetravellingsaleswoman.com/w...lkingAbout.jpg

Cool nine-year old thread. Flanders is a fascinating place to visit, especially if you book a guided tour with a knowledgeable guide.