Steve Jobs is brilliant but he can also be ruthless:

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1981815,00.html

Interesting man. :) Rich too.

Yer point is?

I tried to convert. I wanted to like these machines. I really did. I've replaced 3 Mac keyboards and a 1GB memory chip in 2 years of owning my Mini. Also smoked a Mac USB hub. Very slick OS, but the machine is an unreliable pig that doesnt play well with anything I plug into its USB ports. I wont buy another one of these.

I may buy an iPhone, tho.

So, for the most part, there are NO creative people in the corporate world. Ooookey...And for the record I never said that Mac's suck. I think OSX is their first real OS that even us "corporate" guys who can't play guitar (yes I freely admit I'm bitter about that) can work with and not get a snicker from the tech guys.

Mac, PC, Solaris, Linux. They all do the same thing in much the same way. The Mac just does it with a more polished look - I admitted that. Of course you're gonna pay extra for that Apple HW but what the heck. Right? If you're just concerned with how things *look* then I guess we aren't talking about the same thing.

I wonder why people who build their own PCs seem to have problems with them? Probably skimp somewhere on componets. Spend lots of $$$ on a fast CPU and maybe a decent mobo, a killer graphics card, and then put **** RAM in it.

I have an Intel DK440LX motherboard with dual 300Mhz PIIs, 512MB of Crucial PC133 RAM, Adaptec 2940UW SCSI controller, 2x 9.1GB Atlas IV drives, VooDoo3 3000 graphics card and a Thermaltake PSU. It's been running the same install of Windows 2000 Pro for YEARS, with nary so much as a problem. The only problems I *did* have, is when I forgot to connect the fan on the 2nd CPU so it overheated. My fault. Windows never crashed on it, despite having the CPU pegged at 100% 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. My longest uptime on it was just under 300 days, and then I only shut it down because my room flooded.

Same deal with the Windows 2003 box sitting next to me or the NT4 SP6a machine I used to run as a file server/test web dev. bed and RC5 client. That thing was 133Mhz with 128MB of RAM and you couldn't get it to crash for anything.

Buy good stuff and you likely won't have problems.

I tried using a Mac running OSX, and it was pretty alright, but just didn't do it for me. I found the UI to be hard to navigate and I felt hampered by it. It could just be because I'm used to Windows, but then I know my way around Solaris pretty well.

And, no, OSX isn't based on UNIX. The OSX kernel is based on a modified BSD kernel which isn't UNIX(tm) certified. However, Apple is applying to The Open Group for UNIX certification.

The Macs do throw out awesome performance though, the G5 with that PowerPC 970 CPU made by IBM. In RC5-72, they stomp x86 based machines at less clockspeed. Kudos to IBM I guess.

Me? I'll stick with SUN gear and quality x86 stuff, although I'd like to move completely to SUN (but can't afford it).

for me it was really simple last summer when I went to buy a laptop for school. Specs were nearly identical on the dell i bought versus the brand new ibooks that three of my friends bought. the major difference- $900 for my pc, roughly $1300 for the iBook.

to date the only thing i have really done with my computer is watch dvd's, burn dvd's, surf the web, and write papers. I do not need a to spend $400 extra dollars to do that. and the dvd burning software I have could not be easier. the process is rip dvd to harddrive, insert blank disc, burn

Mac must haves:
- Quicksilver
- Omni Graffle
- Omni Outliner
- Growl

Check out http://www.versiontracker.com to search/find good Mac apps.

I wonder sometimes if you PC guys know what you're missing. From fully usable drag-n-drop, to simple and unobtrusive work flow (no needless dialogs, etc), no reboots for reconfigurations, intuitive interfaces, and powerful features, the differences could not be more stark. The filesystem is cleaner, no mystery file extensions floating around all over the place, the apps are compact and rarely require installing and rarely if ever require uninstalling. And on and on.... It is truely the finest and most powerful operating system on the planet.

I think you mean a 486DX. DX2 would be better but agree with the SX sucking wind.


EDIT: I stand corrected, there was a 386DX. I must've skipped that processor during my building days. :(

Thanks for the input - I didn't start this thread to start a Mac vs PC debate - I was really looking for suggestions in relation to software and tips for my new Macs from Mac users on the forum. :) Thanks to all who have suggested tips - I'm busy burning my video tapes into DVDs at the moment and it's never been this easy!

Apple hardware does not cost more than a comparable box from anyone else.

When you compare boxes with the same spec they are at the same price.

Yes you can get a PC for a lot less but you are buying less features. You can also pay a lot more for a PC.

I never advocate someone spending $1000 when $500 gets them where they need to be.

It's not all about looks, it's about build quality. Apples industrial design and attention to detail is leaps and bounds ahead of any other PC manufacturer.

The resale value of your average PC is equal to that of used chewing gum. Macs hold their value for years. I have sold 5 year old boxes for 50-60 cents on the dollar. There is a reason for that.

Saying Macs are more expensive is like going to a Lexus dealer and complaining about the price because Nissans are cheaper.

Apple simply does not make lower end boxes. It's not where their market is.

My favorite thing about OSX is Grab :)

Here's my latest USB debacle, encountered literally minutes ago as I plugged my memory card reader into the USB port on my 3rd new Apple keyboard (all purchased in the last 2 years).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169218168.jpg

Thankfully the USB port on the back of this POS still works. I just unplug my printer and plug the card reader into there since I need to transfer pictures to the machine.

Yeah, Apples are swell. Real industrial grade hardware.

I don't think the issue is building your own system, the issue is the OS, which is Microsoft. Now, perhaps if you want to run a PC with Linux it would work great, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to make Linux work with all my software that is written for Windows.

My father-in-law bought a Dell PC and has had the same problems I did. Perhaps the issue isn't PC vs Mac, more like Windows vs Mac OS X.

Quote:

It is truely the finest and most powerful operating system on the planet.

Are you kidding? Let's start a list of OSes MacOS can't step to.

OpenVMS
Solaris (UltraSPARC)
AIX
IRIX
OSF/1 aka Digital UNIX aka Tru-64
zOS
UNICOS

I'm sure I know what you're going for, the "finest" and "most powerful" desktop operating system on the planet, but you threw out a pretty wide blanket.

I don't buy that. Several large (very large) hosting companies run Windows 2000 or Windows 2003. Check out NetCraft.com. I realize it's a different environment, but if the issue really was that Windows just crashes randomly and breaks itself for no reason, wouldn't that happen on these web servers also? Running IIS, Exchange, MySQL (or MS-SQL), for months on end with heavy loads...

I'm leaning more towards crappy componets and users that cause *most* problems with Windows. And, yes, I consider run of the mill Dell stuff to be crap. There is much, much better out there.

Also, IMO, Alienware matches Apple for build quality.

Shuie,

The USB ports on the keyboard do not provide max power. Only the ports on the front or back of the actual machine provide enough power to power certain devices. The keyboard ports are fine for some devices, but not all. You need a powered USB hub. Don't skimp on a cheap one. Buy a good one for $40 or so. They are available everywhere. It will solve your problems. Not fair to blame this on the Mac.... this is common knowledge and has been well known for years. Sounds like you haven't done much reading or research :)

Yeah, what do I know. Im just one of those uncreative corporate people. iWork

Any of you creative elitist Mac snobs figure out how to install a database server, web server, application server, and a fully functional instance of Oracle, SAP, or PeopleSoft on your powerbook yet? I can do it on an XP laptop and I've heard it can be done on Linux. Oh well, at least you have a slick utility that would allow you to remote desktop into a Windows box if you ever needed to do something uncreative like administer one of these systems. I guess thats kinda the same, or maybe even better :)

I bought a Mac 7500 in 1996, used it with no failures of any kind for 7 years, it finally had a bum power supply. I'm now using a Mac MDD dual 1.4ghz processors, built in 2002 I think, also with no problems so far. I have some PC's here, but the Mac gets the most use.

I guess I need the Mac made memory card reader then? Please help me do some research, or if you think I can handle it, give me something to read. This is not an externally powered device. Its designed to work off of the power supplied from the USB port. Why does Apple get to take the 'Universal' out of USB? Thats always been the best thing about it, IMO.

I bought the Mac USB hub after my Mac-compatible logitech hub stopped working. The Mac hub stopped working in short order also. I was given the same lecture about the memory chip when it failed. It was the latest and greatest Mac specified and recommended piece!

The keyboard USB's are for the mouse, or in my case trackball because I don't like a mouse, and other low power devices.

I installed a USB 2.0 card with four ports in my Mac, really speeds things up, particularly graphic file transfers. My current monitor has a card reader built in, it's a Dell 2405FPW.

Uhm,
OS X comes with Apache, Perl, SQL, Python, etc... installed. Ruby will be implemented in the next release. In System Prefs just turn on personal web sharing. Your root web directory is in the User/Sites folder.

If you want to customize and don't want to dick around in the command line or manually edit files just download and install MAMP (open source=free), (Mac,Apache,mySQL,Perl) http://www.mamp.info/en/index.php

Also available are LAMP for linux and WAMP for windows.

Takes all of 30 seconds to get running. It installs in it's own directory and does not modify any OS X system stuff so if you want to "uninstall" it just drag the folder to the trash.

I actually use MAMP to do ALL of my dev work on my laptop before dumping to a live server.

Oracle Database 10g and Oracle JDeveloper 10g are fully certified on Mac OS X. Turn your Mac into a full-fledged development environment and deploy Xserve-based grids using the software and resources on this page.

http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/macos/index.html

Non Universal USB ports on the keyboard. Now, thats a nice feature. Industrial grade, for sure :)

You guys have all helped me with my Mac problems in old threads here throughout my ownership experience. I do appreciate it, and I understand the brand loyalty, or the appreciation for something nice and robust. However, my limited experience with Apple products is quite different than almost all of yours.

The great thing about these threads, IMO, its that it becomes obvious that we now have more than one option. Apples, PCs, and even the home brewed Linux machines are on a more level playing field now than they have ever been. Depending on the industry, they are all pretty capable in their own respects.

the bigger question is, why in the world would I *want* to run oracle on a laptop? Just because I can doesn't mean I should...

You might want to if you were an Oracle developer. It was a response to the Industry comments.

Shuie-

I don't understand your complaint with that dialog. You tried to do something that is not supported by USB itself, OSX gives you a full explaination of the problem with suggested solutions, and you're angry? Some men you just can't reach I suppose.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Solidworks and Autocad will not work on a Mac. I am a mechanical engineer and the company I work provides us with both of the above cad programs.

Thus far in this debate, the only thing advantage to Macs that I would care about, is that someone mentioned that they do not get viruses. Is this really true? Do Mac users never have to run antivirus or Spybot type software?

I tried to help my wife when she brought her new work laptop Mac home one evening and neither myself or my teens could figure out how to do anything on it. Why do some claim it is so easy or intuitive to use? None of my family has ever had any problems figuring out how to do something on a new version of Windows. Trying to operate the Mac, it seemed as if everything was based on little icons that had no meaning where with windows, text is typically used to describe various buttons and functions.

Having to memorize tons of stupid little symbols instead of just being able to read text does not equal better in my book. It just insures that I will never take the time to learn to use one.

5 years of use, virus free. I've never heard of anyone getting a virus either and Im in the industry.

If Solidworks/Autocad is not available, just run them Parallels, it'll be just as fast.

Getting used to the Mac interface takes a bit of time because its different from anything you've used before. Once you get the basics its really intuitive and way more powerful than the antiquated Toolbar/Start button.

USB, as I understand it, is universal. Allegedly, thats what the 'U' stands for. Everywhere I see the little symbol on a device, I'm supposed to be able to plug a similar device, built to the same industry standard, into it and its supposed to function. What am I missing? Do I need a Mac memory card reader?

Please don't give up on me. I can change :)

I don't care that these machines have flaws. I use them all and I manage fine. I don't hate any of them and I don't get salty when I need to reboot or rebuild one of them. I just don't understand why Mac people absolutely will not accept the possibility that their machines might not be perfect the choice for every person that uses a computer.

FWIW, yes the virus/spyware/bot situation seems to be much better on my Mac than on my PCs. Thats why I don't mind having the Mac at home.

You're right Shuie, it is universal on a device basis, but not if that device is a gigantic power-hog. This is not a Mac issue, its a limitation of the USB spec, the bus (wires) can only supply so much power to the connected devices. When the device requires more power than the bus can provide (ie harddrive, lamp, etc), the device either needs to be powered externally or, if its in a certain range, can be powered off its own port.

You would have the same problem with that reader if you plugged it into your keyboard attached to a Windows machine.

Ok, don't buy it. No skin off my nose.

All I am telling you is I have used PCs exclusively for over 20 years. I understand Windows better than your average user and have built my own PC systems for the last 8 years (and no I don't use crappy components, especially RAM).

I am telling you my experience. After three different PC systems all went kaput within 2 years I switched to Mac. It is a different world. No comparison.

Keep using your PC, I really don't care...

As promised here is the Mac in my office, a 450 Mhz G4
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169226277.jpg

I had Oracle on my laptop to support customer demo's where we had no outside connectivity and of course for those times when we were developing stuff on the run. We've since moved to MySQL.

Shuie,

I really don't care what someone chooses to use. I get involved with these debates when I see incorrect information being put out there.

I use both platforms, I have my preference, obviously the Mac.

I have never run antivirus or spybot software on any of my osx machines. Period.

I don't understand your stupid little symbols comment.

As far as app, yes there are some windows only apps. The new arcitechture makes that pretty much a non-issue, and still if you go into most creative industries (I did not say that no one in corporate was creative), you will see mostly Macs. In my current shop we have a lot of PCs, but only because we do a lot of game development and the deployment (for mostly gov agencies) is on PC. Sitting around a meeting you'll see mostly powerbooks.

Nothing is perfect, but if you live and work in the creative world, Macs are more of a natural fit.

Dave, that is a six year old machine, are the windows based machines the same age?

if no one uses it, can I have it?

Tim, I installed anti virus program once in 17 years on Mac about 15 years ago.

What little symbols were there?

I have a G4 just like the one pictured that took a **** 2 years ago. We took it to the Mac store and they said it was officially dead, don't bother.

Actually I beleive Windows 200x to be a much better product than XP.

And I can buy into markedly better stability in that environment. Tightly controlled and constantly monitored equipment is going to be more stable.

I agree with Slow that end users are a huge contributor to instability.

One day my mother calls from the office, her PC went south and they needed to scan something so they disconnected the scanner and took it over to a Mac thay had in the office since it had image editing SW on it.

They plug the scanner in and now the Mac won't boot. I ask her which cable she used. If you have not guessed by now she plugged a parallel cable into a 25 pin scsi port.

One of the companies I worked for was in a town with an unreliable power grid. I can't tell you how many times people would come in in the morning to find there computers not working. They'd immediately call the help desk who would tell them, 'there was a blackout last night, have you tried turning it on?"

Joel, what did they say was bad? Do you still have it?

Steve, I don't own the machine and thus can't give it away.

I never said this Mac was the latest greatest. It was purchased for an engineer who *refused* to develop with Java on a PC ~ 5 years ago. My issue with him was that he would submit bugs against our software for issues only seen on his Mac when our customers (those with the green) ran 100% Win/Solaris systems. I kicked him off my team. Anywho that's OT.

It's a handsome machine for sure but better OS (especially pre OSX)...not. Different and capable yes.