Non-interventionism is free trade and contact with everyone without barrier tariffs, without coercive military activity. Isolationism is severely curbed trade via laws, barrier tariffs, and an at least partially xenophobic culture.

The modern term "Isolationism or isolationist" is used by people who want to rationalize military adventurism on a global scale, for "their own good" or for "our own good" or both. When you've peeled the onion you find that the center is the corporate state using government as it's muscle. Neither World War One nor World War Two were caused by non-interventionism, they were caused by exactly the opposite.

Check out the Wikipedia link and its references.

I did. It semed to me the difference between voluntary and involuntary was how many meters you were from the point of a gun. Basically, this was a war zone.

That is why we have no business helping the Israeli's continue what is eventually going to be the Palestinian genocide.

That is true (involuntary), but then there's this:

"Let the Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab countries to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea." (New Star In The Near East, New York, 1950).

The prime minister of Iraq, Nuri Said, declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." (Sir Am Nakbah”, Nazareth, 1952).

The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes:
"Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Morris, Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).

and on and on and on...

That's the best you can come up with? Seriously? Kind David??? What a joke!

You equate KD to suicide bombings in public places, busses full of women & children, shopping malls, etc?

Did you miss the part where they (Irgun) called to have the building evacuated BEFORE they detonated... so that the hotel would be evacuated?

Unbelievable. Your hatred has blinded you.

- Skip

Exactly!

You always know you've run them out of excuses when they fall back on that tired cliche' of stated or implied anti-Semitism.

I always answer with a reference to the best debunking tool I know:
The Politics of Anti-Semitism
http://images14.fotki.com/v336/photo...emitism-vi.jpg

Most of the essays were written by Jews as a warning about the problems created by using this tactic. The warnings were for both Jews and non-Jews.

if the shoe fits...

Run out of excuses? Not even close. People think of you as an anti-Semite because of your words. Nothing else.

The only people who attempt to smear me with the claim of anti-Semitism are those who don't want any criticism of Israel, and try to intimidate people with their smear tactics. People like you.

Those tactics are easily seen by most folks, and certainly yours are obvious.

The specious claims of anti-Semitism no longer work. You'll need another tactic, or continue to try the anti-Semitism one and see it fall flat time and again.

I don't care either way, I plan to continue to post the truth no matter what you do.

Anti-Semitism is not the criticism of Israel. That's a comforting canard that anti-Semites often make. I've never heard anybody here tell you that you are an anti-Semite for simply criticizing Israel.

The Israeli people are the most admirable group in the Middle East. Israel is one of the better countries on this planet, in every respect. Take off your blinders and have a look. As a so-called libertarian, one would think you would respect the freedom they enjoy and the achievements they have earned.

You speak endlessly about how the US should breach the agreements stemming from the Camp David Accords and cut off aid promised the Israelis for giving up the Sinai. But I haven't heard a word about cutting off aid to Egypt. I'm sure as a "libertarian", you'll say that we should eliminate all aid. But it's curious that you never mention that.

Why would a so-called libertarian be such a prolific cheerleader for far-left Counterpunch? It is the anti-free-trade articles? The pro-union articles? The nonstop articles criticising Israel? Bingo.

An anti-Semite is defined not by one's criticism of Israel, but by one's single-minded focus on Israel and one's obsessive conspiracies about how the world's problems can all be traced back to the Jewish lobby who affect American foreign policy, which causes all the world's problems.

You gave yourself away in this thread by "The Israeli's are no better than the Palestinians in the conflict." Your bigotry has blinded you.

This thread is asking why the Palestinians aren't able get it together and run Gaza. Israel pulled out (that's what you are asking for, right?) and let them govern themselves. It's been a disaster -- nobody with any sense would blame Israel for what has happened. And look what you do: paste article after article criticising Israel, never say a single word placing any blame on the guilty parties, and you even have the gall to indict somebody for spewing "AIPAC propaganda" when they mention the fact that Palestinians would drive an unarmed Israel into the sea. In Gaza, they launch rockets at Israeli civilians years after Israel left the territory. Do you not see that? Your bigotry has blinded you.

I think there's plenty of blame for Israel. They have hardly handled things perfectly. I have no problem with people critizing them.

That said, your beliefs are obvious. Most people see through your denials. They're laughable.

That is not a smear tactic. That's an observation of reality.

Reardon, Skipdup, I think you both are too quick to play the anti-semitism card. The Israeli / Palestinean conflict is a product of both groups actions, as Skipdup mentions above. Both sides are culpable for the violence there. Pat points that out, and he does not support the US being used to engage in actions against another nation in the ME as a proxy for Israel. To think Israel wouldn't love to have the US take on Iran for them, is naive. His tone may be aggressive, but I really don't think he hates Jews. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read his posts. I certainly don't hate them. And I do not support the US being used by Israel to take on Iran, and who knows who tomorrow.


Just my opinion. :)

Jim- Your last posts seems completely reasonable. But, I have to wonder if we're talking about the same guy.

Saying Israel is worse than the animals that explode themselves in coffee shops, malls and buses stinks of more than an honest disapproval of Israels political decisions. But, it's much more than that. It's not one post, or one thread, or one weeks worth of reading...

On a slightly related note... I had an uncle who held deeply rooted racists views of black people. He talked about "them" all the time and always had "truth" behind what he would say. Even at my younger age, it was obvious and sad. It's eerie how much Pat's posts remind me of my uncle. I have no doubt they would have gotten along quite well. Oh, and my uncle always said he wasn't a racists.

Pat tends towards hyperbole. We have some other folks with that affliction around here, too. :D

...but at least he's always right...

well, somebody has to be. ;)

That's what you're doing now.

Quote:

The Israeli people are the most admirable group in the Middle East. Israel is one of the better countries on this planet, in every respect. Take off your blinders and have a look. As a so-called libertarian, one would think you would respect the freedom they enjoy and the achievements they have earned.

Israel is just another foreign country, very socialist, and of no concern to me in the slightest.

Quote:

You speak endlessly about how the US should breach the agreements stemming from the Camp David Accords and cut off aid promised the Israelis for giving up the Sinai. But I haven't heard a word about cutting off aid to Egypt. I'm sure as a "libertarian", you'll say that we should eliminate all aid. But it's curious that you never mention that.

I've stated many, many times in this forum that the US government should NOT be paying foreign aid to ANY country, not just to any in the mideast, but to ANY on this planet. It's money that belongs to Americans, who know how best to spend it. You want aid given to Israel, give them some.

Quote:

Why would a so-called libertarian be such a prolific cheerleader for far-left Counterpunch? It is the anti-free-trade articles? The pro-union articles? The nonstop articles criticising Israel? Bingo.

When they have a truthful article, I post it. You may have noticed I don't post their ridiculous economic articles here, there's a reason for that, they're garbage.

Quote:

An anti-Semite is defined not by one's criticism of Israel, but by one's single-minded focus on Israel and one's obsessive conspiracies about how the world's problems can all be traced back to the Jewish lobby who affect American foreign policy, which causes all the world's problems.

The well documented Harvard retrospective study on the Israel Lobby's outrageous influence on US government foreign policy is beyond reproach. The Israel Lobby's influence is the largest, all other countries influence pales in comparison.

Quote:

You gave yourself away in this thread by "The Israeli's are no better than the Palestinians in the conflict." Your bigotry has blinded you.

That's yet another claim of anti-Semitism, and is wrong this time as it's been wrong every other time.

Quote:

This thread is asking why the Palestinians aren't able get it together and run Gaza. Israel pulled out (that's what you are asking for, right?) and let them govern themselves. It's been a disaster -- nobody with any sense would blame Israel for what has happened. And look what you do: paste article after article criticising Israel, never say a single word placing any blame on the guilty parties, and you even have the gall to indict somebody for spewing "AIPAC propaganda" when they mention the fact that Palestinians would drive an unarmed Israel into the sea. In Gaza, they launch rockets at Israeli civilians years after Israel left the territory. Do you not see that? Your bigotry has blinded you.

The Israeli's have taken every step they can to steal Palestinian land in the West Bank, and huge tracts of what Israel claims is theirs now, isn't recognized by any government except the US government. The Israeli is a criminal government, just like the US government, and is no better than any other government in the mideast. because of that criminality.

No worries.. Fatah and Hamas are busy killing at each other..seems they hate each other more, than that evil place called Israel.
Little /no water in that genepool, to top it of ..they p1ss in it with glee.

Rika

It's not a "Harvard retrospective". That thoroughly criticized piece was published in the London Review of Books. That's like calling Ward Churchill's 'Little Eichmanns' essay a "University of Colorado retrospective".

Were you trying to pull a fast one, or do you really not know the difference?

It's been published on a great many more "outlets" now, and I do mean respected ones. Further, they've had numerous talks and discussion forums, and other venues. It was published at Harvard, but from pressure groups, i.e. the usual suspects, it was removed. It may have been returned to being available from Harvard's Kennedy School these days because of their embarassment from being intimidated in the first place.

Criticized? Yeah, criticized by such heroic entities and people as AIPAC, The Antidefamation League, NY Congressman Jerrold Nadler, and that paragon of virtue, Alan Dershowitz.

The Israel Lobby at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government.

I think that is the best idea EVER! You should do it.
Now if we could just invent technology to cut and paste humans I think you could pull it off.

Listen, Frenchy...

Seriously.

Reardon, you obvious are deeply in love with Israel, the country, and Israelis, the people. I'm happy for you. I have been to Israel a lot, and know a lot of regular (i.e., outside of politics) Israelis. They are nice people, like nice people I know in other countries. Nothing spectacular or above average. Just pretty average, as far as people go. It's clear you are hellbent on carrying their water in these discussions of Israel and the middle east. OK, fine, but people that don't have your same level of devotion are not necessarily anti-semites. And my interpretation of anti-semitism doesn't mean an indifference to Israel (once again, the country) equates to hating Jews (the people, not necessarily hailing from Israel). I respectfully suggest that you holster the slightly veiled anti-semitism insinuations that you've thrown around here.

Shawn, fuel air bombs are the hot set-up. :cool:

Was that a pun?;)

Oh, yeah. I guess it was. :D

I don't have any particular longing for Israel. All I say is that they are the best country in the Middle East (not real tough competition, mind you) and should be admired for what they have accomplished -- especially given their neighborhood. Singling out real and imagined problems with Israel, hourly, every day, while ignoring bigger problems with governments and citizenry in the region, is a bizarre obsession. Call it what you will.

I hold out hope that they can come to a mutually acceptable peace with the Palestineans. It takes two to tango and the US can help with the music.

That, Jim, we can agree on.

:)

Actually, I think that should be US foreign policy goal #1 or #1a. :D

I think your bigotry has blinded you. It seems like you've never gotten any of your news from any real, unbiased source. I have posted enough on this topic in the past couple years, and don't want spend my time trying to sway overzealous Zionists. There is probably a reason that UN peace resolutions for that area are only targeted for veto by a handful of countries: the US, Britain, and Israel. The rest of the world seems to have a much different opinion on this topic than the US populace, government, and general media.

Israel is one of the better countries? It sounds like some twisted, satirical joke. Persecution of hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians, that's great. You can look at this documentary:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/democracyondeadline/film.html# to see some Israeli journalists who would whole-heartedly disagree w/ you.

I can't believe you would attempt to infer that one group of peoples (the Israelis) are better than another (the Palestinians). Excluding the terrorists of each group, what exactly makes one set of persons better than the other? I can't believe an adult (I assume you are) even posted that.

Perhaps some of the reasons why the Palestinians are having trouble getting their government running efficiently has to do with:
-Israel routinely shutting off power, water to Palestinian areas
-Israel stealing tax dollars originally meant for Palestinian government budget
-Israel arresting elected officials of the democratic parliament
-Israel making travel extremely difficult and arduous for ordinary Palestinians

Well, at least I can be glad there's so many people in the US who know more than Nobel Laureate Jimmy Carter on this topic... what could he possibly know about the issues.

Here's what former Prime Minister of Israel Ariel Sharon has said in the past (after reading these statements, this must be the greatest country in the middle east!):

Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory. Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands." — Ariel Sharon, as Israeli Foreign Minister, in comments broadcast on Israeli radio, November 15, 1998.

"I am for lasting peace... United, I believe, we can win the battle for peace. But it must be a different peace, one with full recognition of the rights of the Jews in their one and only land: peace with security for generations and peace with a united Jerusalem as the eternal, undivided capital of the Jewish people in the state of Israel forever."

And Ariel Sharon in an interview published in the Israeli daily Davar:
"Even if you'll prove to me... that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care.
"we are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? Listen, a people that gave itself up to be slaughtered, a people that let soap to be made of its children and lamp shades from the skin of its women is a worse criminal than its murderers. Worse than the Nazis...If your nice civilised parents had come here in time instead of writing books about the love for humanity and singing Hear O Israel on the way to the gas chambers, now don't be shocked, if they instead had killed six million Arabs here or even one million, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, we would have been called all sorts of names, but we could be here today as a people of 25 million!
"Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care. And I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal.

Many Israelis are not about peace.

Yes, I do think Israelis have a superior culture to the "Palestinians".

And I do appreciate your reply to my initial question. Food for thought.

In many respects, the Palestinians are the "Jews" of the Arab world-- well educated and with deep cultural roots, leading other neighboring peoples to be scornful of them.