thoughts on full-auto. target firing
 

I just returned from LV--on Monday my GF and I went to the Gun Store for some target shooting. They had a very nice assortment of firearms from which to choose--I ended up going with a M249 SAW, M1A1 Thompson, and an M3A1 "grease" gun. Ran 40 rounds through the SAW, 50 throught the Thompson and 100 through the grease gun, and had a blast. I had never fired a full-auto before and was pleasantly surprised. The SAW was by-far the easiest shooter out of the bunch, the Thompson was a brute--heavy trigger pull, somewhat hard to maintian level, and the barrel got hot quick--the grease gun was a vast improvement in all areas and just a real pleasure(which is why I decided to fire 100 rounds). Prior to firing, the range master commented that in addtion to the production benefits with the grease gun, it would be obvious why the grease gun superceded the thompson--and he was right. It was a nice diversion from the hours of gambling.
SAWhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170872541.jpg
Thompsonhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170872558.jpg
M3A1http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170872576.jpg

Yup. Now also remember that full auto is really mean for short controlled bursts, and it takes time/practice/training to be able to do it right. The military didn't have it, so thats why M16 are only 3 shot bursts now, not true full auto.

BTW - depending on where you live, you can buy FA legally, although the guns are expensive - no more manufacture for us civlilian users since May of '86.

What is involved in purchasing and LEAGALLY owning a class 3 weapon in the US?

try a full auto M-14! you will see why only guys by the name of 'lil john" could handle them.

for real giggles try the hk mp-5k(kurz). or the hk-51 in .308 if you want to see god in technicolor!

aim low.............you'll be high, in no time at all..............repeat!


now think bout this............how many of your rounds even hit the target?

full autos are good for anti aircraft, hordes and masses of advancing angry mobs, and for clearing a room or bunker, w/no thought on cleaning up after!

now heres how the drill works when you buy a full auto:

1) $200 tax stamp from the feds.

2) ultra clearance from all city/county/state cops

3) a nice sit down chat with the above.

4)a nice LONG WAIT for the above tax stamp.

5) a very spendy price on weapon(best appreciation investment aside from raw land).

6) cant loan it to anyone EVER!

7)friends can shoot only with you there.

8)lots of blammo!

9)lots of cleaning.............lots of cleaning.

10) you will get an audience wherever you can legally go w/it.

11) when your local bank is robbed and the idiot teller says "he had a black evil assault machine gun". you can bet your a$$, that in about a 1/2 hour a whole bunch of funny looking cars and suv's will show up at your house, looking for the aforementioned machine gun. and by god it better be clean! and you better NOT HAVE POWDER RESIDUE ON YOUR HANDS!

12) crossing state lines can be real GIGGLES ALSO!

13) and generally any time you fire it, for a period of time, expect somebody to walk up and present a badge asking for "YOUR PAPERS PLEASE!"

14) lot of fun...............but a, PITA x 1000!

buy one for an investment. go shoot the hell out of it. clean it. and put it away for 10 years,sell it, and put kids thru college!

oh yeah for the rocket scientists. ATF/FBI/LOCAL COPS CAN COME INTO YOUR HOUSE 24/7/365 without ringing the door bell to see if that weapon is there! ie. if you had a party the night before and someone was smoking pot and left a seed and they found that seed.........................JUST CONSIDER YOURSELF A MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL PRISON NEAREST YOU!

Yeah--the Thompson was walking up the target at a brisk pace.

They wouldn't allow anything more than 6-8 round bursts--which were fine by me.

The targets were RPG-toting terrorists--the only fired rounds not on-target were 2 shots from the Thompson. I brought the targets home--I may take some pics this week and post them. It was a good time--although a guy next to me was firing a shorty 12 GA pistol-grip--talk about LOUD.

at snobbsdale (scottsdale) gun club , you can pick your flavor of weapon including M-60's. no doubt a break the fun barrier experience not many get to experience............EVER!

its spendy from the get go to own one. and you better be a standup guy w/no skeltons in your closet nor any bad habits. federal laws on machine guns are not a joke.

had a clown at a 1000yd military match shoot show up with an hk-91 w/psg-1 trigger group. he had "played with it". went full auto on his first shot. needless to say the range officer evicted him toot sweet, and he was involved with a group of people asking all sorts of questions. and these people were NOT HAPPY WITH HIS BEHAVIOR! and these people drove funny ford crown vics with lil red and blue lights w/black dress socks over the lights in their grill!


have shot full auto numerous times, w/numerous weapons . after you figure out your not hitting your target, the thrill kinda goes away.

military knew right away during development of M-14, that it could not be controlled on full auto in orig. configuration. came out with fore grip and pistol grip which helped but rounds on target still wasnt up to par. went back to semi-auto and lo and behold rounds on target % improved.

fast forward to development M-16...............same story.

dont get me wrong they have their place. and usually its in a FIXED POSITION, not handheld. shot placement ................is shot placement!

So they are not accurate at 636 LAZERED yards?

You can bypass local LEO signoff by forming an LLC that owns the weapon, with certain members of the LLC allowed to be possessors. But essentially that is it.

Anyone have any comments on the MAC-10? They are _only_ about $4K. My preference would run to a grease gun, but they are hard to find.

red-beard - shot a FA one in 45. Just like the video games. However, *any* full auto is a good investment since no more are made for mere civilians...

Personally, I'd find a FA 22, at least that way you can afford to feed it.

damn it jeff..............686....6-8-6.......six-hundred-and eighty-six yards!

im sure we could rig up the barrel in a fixed position, take some sighter shots and be right on the money. even if we did pull FMJ rounds and make mexican match ammo! LOL!


i cant EVEN IMAGINE having a LLC, with a group of guys and allowing them to control my destiny, as far as ATF is concerned. they dont play kiddie games when it comes to autos and rightfully so. wicked aftermath if in the hands of bad guys or even clowns. if i ever did buy one, i'd go shoot the hell out of it until bored, tear it apart, clean it, and consider just like another piece of land i own. sit on it for 10-20 years, sell it a make a good profit.

autos are not something you take on a camping trip somewhere. peope hear them go off and the 911 calls go out! and you get an audience real quick.

red beard mac-10s are still plentiful. have friend that owns bar. bikers dont mess with him. nobody messes with him when he makes his deposits!
their best shot at an open air range, when you go shoot. you would be surprised at the lack of accuracy at longer ranges. also when shot alot, rifling takes a beating and then out the window goes accuracy. 3-round bursts are always fun to watch as they impact.

shooting a full auto .22 is a blast. their cheap and if suppressed quiet as a church mouse. check out suppressed calicos(endorsed by many prisons w/frangible rounds.) will make an 8x8x16 block into powder in about .000003 seconds! E&L mfg. used to sell these here until val moved up to oregon.

shooting a 9mm full auto suppressed is fun also and cheap. still fairly controllable.

shoot .223, and muzzles start to rise but still somewhat cheap. stand into them and force barrel down for best results.

shoot .308, muzzle climbs to the moon, and gets spendy. but at night..........the muzzle flash is awesome! hang onto gun. at most gun stores that have range inside, they are chained so as to NOT allow uncontrollable fire across lanes(thank you very much)!

never got to shoot a .50 caliber. thats on the "to-do" list!

I fired a bunch of full-auto weapons while I was in the military, especially while in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm. We shot all of the captured Iraqi weapons before we destroyed them and I like the fully-auto HK (can't remember the model) the best. The SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) is nice, too, but it does take training and practice to be effective with a fully automatic weapon. Did I mention that you'll blister your hands if you touch the barrel after firing them? Don't ask me how I know...

One of my local Porsche buddies (not sure if he's a Pelicanhead) has a nice class III collection and brought me along to shoot his Mac-10. First time you let a burst off, you can't help but explode in laughter. His Mac has a strap under the barrel and you really have to pull it down to keep the gun from shooting the ceiling. It's only a 9mm, so the ammo is affordable, but loading 30 or 50 round magazines takes many times longer than emptying one does.

I was at the range once when a guy there had a full auto Tommy gun with a mountain of brass under it. I asked the clerk if that guy had bought all his ammo there and she said he was good for about $1500 so far that day. You can't burn $20 bills with a torch faster than you'll put them through a full auto gun.

There was a reason the BAR was heavy. You need it that way to keep the recoil and muzzle climb down.

I expect an M-2 would be about the same as the M-14, for muzzle climb issues.

Actually, when the Germans developed the Sturmgewehr, it used a cut down rifle cartridge, just for that reason. I need to try a 7.63x39mm full auto rifle one of the days...

I think the full auto AK-47's have the end of the muzzle cut at around a 45 deg. angle to reduce muzzle climb. I think the theory goes that the gas escapes upward first that way and pushes the muzzle back down a little.

My favorite fully-autos to shoot were the Steyr Aug weapons we captured from the Iraqis. They looked like something from a science fiction movie, but were lightweight and relatively easy to control.

charleskieffner - I wouldn't suggest an LLC for you and buds to share a weapon. However, for avoiding CLEO sign off in a un-friendly county, or for allowing the wife to be a posessor, etc. it would be a good thing.

SmileWavy

someone invited me to come to Omaha, and play with his toys.
got to shoot various automatic's, also some silenced HK auto.
Just like the movies, they went pfffffft.
and he has a M-60, have fired those, and he is proof..enough $$
you can own just about anything.
Rika

quite a few autos in arizona as well as suppressed weapons. last maremount M-60 i saw for sale in full-auto i think was 22K bucks. one place here is a tunnel bored into a mountain that is a storage center for full-autos. extreme security 24/7.

alot of guys are doing it for the investment angle. cant go wrong. RDTS right here in cave creek, does conversions all day long for HK's. makes some real fine shooters. HK 91-93-94 HK-51's and belt fed HK-21's. does it all for HK's. RDTS.com

always fun to go to range when old machine guns there on tripods. alot rebarreled to .308 for cheaper shooting.

the bad side is when idiots buy full-autos and just keep them in their closets and they are burglarized, and weapon is taken. hell of a weapons for drugs trade to mexico. bad guys in mexico are heavily armed...........BIG TIME!

bad guys outside mikes sky rancho baja shot the hell out of good guys(like dead) a while back. we come bee-bopping thru pre-running one day and get pounced on by mexican militars w/ hk's pointed at us. after being searched, we found out why they were in the middle of nowhere. assault on bad guys hold up in mountains. and they had an attitude going. thank god for old porno tapes and marlboro cigs to break the ice on that one!

one of the premier conversions on HK's is the SP-89. can make into a host of full auto variants. i'd be happy w/just a semi-auto SP-89. cheaper to shoot!