I heard it was an off-duty cop too. These situations never end until someone else with a gun ends them. So I don't see how the "No Guns" signs at the doors help anyone. BTW, the local SWAT killed an unarmed guy in his own driveway a few doors down from my house last January. It was ruled "accidental". IAD investigated it and interviewed me since I heard the shooting. I told the guy I had the same gun the SWAT guy used and found it very hard to believe he could have fired it accidentally. IAD cop said he agreed with me. So don't think all the cops are expert marksmen.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for CC
 

I actually have quite a high opinion of my local law enforcement. Some of the guys on this board are local law enforcement...

Perhaps you should join your local law enforcement to raise the quality of the staff. Odds are they could use a well-trained lad like yourself...

God made man - Col. Colt made man equal

Todd SmileWavy

...not that there's anything wrong with that...

I have a CC and I carry, My wife has a CC, she carries. It is impossible to say what we would have done faced with this situation but, I can tell you with no hesitation..............we ain't gonna quit "packin'"
We have also had to qualify to get our CC's.
For those who don't like guns, stay away from them. For those who do, carry on.
I cam promise you, you have nothing to worry about from either Beth or myself, and I would hazzard to say anybody else with a simular situation. (armed and licensed)

+1 on all your posts Rick

Point 1- I'm pretty sure the average criminal pays little attention to the "no guns" signs. The 18 year old killer didn't seem to be too impressed by them anyway. Therefore, why bother.

Point 2- Again, I am always amazed at how liberals manage to speak out of both sides of their mouths. They are the first to jump all over cops who shot an "un-armed" man ( I say it in quotes because until the cop is safe and the conflict is over, they are ALL armed) and then they say only cops should have guns because they are the only ones qualified.

I guess it's just a difference of opinion- Democrats want to control everyone and limit rights while Republicans allow democracy to work as it was intended.

you were doing ok up until that tripe...

I own two handguns. I practice with them quite a bit. I would CC on occasion if allowed, but frankly do not feel particularly unsafe in Los Angeles. And I think the cops here do a great job. Nobody is perfect though...

I just don't understand who some people can be so cavalier about what they'd do in such a situation and suggest that they would have taken the guy out, apparently with little regard to the circumstances. Sorry, but unless you've been well trained for such situations (which firing at paper targets at the range does NOT do), then I'd suggest that you might do more harm than good.

bit my lip on this for awhile, waiting to see if anyone had the light bulb go off.

under az. ccw laws(which are damn near verbatum as utahs), anyone with a ccw would be bound by the law to back up that officer. legally, morally, and ethically.

you can bet that officer didnt say to wifey, " i think i'll pack (4) clips tonight for dinner, case the crap goes down." and from what i have read and heard so far it was only (1) he emptied. at about the time his action froze open, expelling last shell, i'm sure he was wishing to god for BACK UP! any kind of back up! cop or ccw.

since non of us know the particulars, its fair enough to say he was a good shot, and stopped the mayhem. cops as well as ccw have different levels of enthusiasm when it comes to practice. you have your "ra-ra" GI JOE mentality, your laid back "what me worry" attitude, etc. since cops have to qualify and ccw have to qualify, its a fair assumption they can hit what they aim at in a stress situation. dont fool yourself...........most people in a stress situation rise to the occasion and actually perform very well.

yesterday upon leaving airport im going thru town and see 5 cops at bank, stringing crime tape. WTF? as i continue down road, here comes unmarked detective and fire truck, paramedic truck-lights /sirens. it would be safe to assume, something bad happened. no mention on any news channel last night. crime tape isnt used for someone having a stroke or falling off a step.(lots of elderly here-snowbirds). so im betting the bank got hit and they were armed. 2nd time here in a year! different banks.

now if any of you or myself were in that bank and weapons were drawn demanding money, it wouldnt take long to figure out who is good and who is bad.

at that point, in the bank or mall, you would automatically take left hand and pull shirt or jacket back, while right hand is drawing weapon , all the while seeking cover, and placing sights on bad guy. as soon as you had clear shot, trigger would be pulled on bad guy. sounds simple....................IT IS! especially when you practice. and even if you dont practice its just like riding a bike..........YOU DONT FERGET!....................EVER!

anybody thats been around firearms, and even those who havent know a sound that is common and a sound that is not common. a gunshot going off anywhere in public aside from range/dezert/forest, is something you look for its whereabouts. its an unnatural sound in public. use combat vets as an example. car backfires and they duck for cover. i hear a round anywhere and i duck for cover and look for its origin. and im not a combat vet. just trained to find source of shot.

if you were in mall, and you heard sound, you would for the most part automatically duck and seek source of sound. a guy in a trench coat firing a shotgun would be a clue he is bad guy. since you now see dead people, your flight or fight reaction would take place instantly! blood pressure would raise, seek cover, round in pipe, safety off, all as you were trained. when shot presented itself..............99.8% of us would then empty the ******* clip, then reload, under cover, and if threat not over empty clip again when target presented itself again.

off hand shooting will get you collateral damage. practiced target acquisition, will put threat down. a steady hand is an accurate shot. notice how cops are trained in 2 hand weapons stance as well as ccw's. cop being trained professional was probably counting shotgun blasts, and when he counted 9(most extendo tubes), thats when he made is move, and took threat out. remains to be seen the details.

bottomline.............if cop wasnt there, more people would be dead. once again...........in the old west, which is where i live, there were less shootings, period. everyone was armed. today more bad guys(more drugs) w/guns and less good people with guns. if everyone was armed...............less crime!

I can't beleive you made it three pages! Bravo!

good until this. Gee, I seem to recall all guns used to be collected in the old west towns, because of too much gunplay, too many unnecessary deaths, too many bystanders killed.

http://www.hutchnews.com/news/regional/stories/ccarry021806.html


If everyone was armed, there might be less crime, but there would be more deaths. The west already tried your position.

I think what we have now is just fine. Those who want/need CCW can get it.

dodge city is a fer way off from arizoney! per capita less crime back in the 1800's, until gun laws started to be introduced in the 60's.

just think about all the towns that have allowed ccw and the crime rates going down. now if you were bad guy and wanted to remain alive, to go play with your loot, you would opt for location w/out ccw's..........DUH! you just may get shot during your crime spree and not enjoy the loot!

this fuch up clown in utah was obviously either high on dope or mentally ill. no one will ever be able to know when or where a person may snap and go bonkers. random violence is just that........random. cops cant be everywhere all the time 24/7/365.

now think about what happens when any of you are suddenly SCARED! for whatever reason. a joke played by coworkers, wife(BOO!), kids........whats the first thing you do???? you protect your vitals, then you realize its a joke, then you either get very mad or start laughing. thats natural flight or fight reaction.

if you were in mall w/with out family and carrying, your gonna duck, cover family, look for source of gunfire, identify source, note carnage, then do 1 or 2 things. RUN or FIGHT! if you see people getting shot dead, if your just an average person this is going to invoke rage. rage will then power you to call 911, grab your gun to protect others and stop threat, get other people to cover. when adrenalin is pumping super human feats are the norm.

you can bet utah and other states will look at signs stating no firearms allowed and review them. just as texas did with the lubbys restaurant killings. ccw laws are becoming the norm, not the unusual. people are sick of drug fed crime or any crime for that fact. w/populations going up, gun sales going up, ccw's going up, if i were bad guy , i think i would seek another profession!

That's another one I don't buy.

An example: the stereotypical mugging scenario plays out as it does because the bad guy assumes you're not armed. He points a gun at you and demands your wallet, you hand over your wallet, and he bails. If he had a reasonable expectation that you were armed, he would cut out the 'asking' bit and just cap you, take your wallet, and be on his merry way. I think it would be naive at best to assume that just because everyone might be armed, that nobody will want to rob them.

I'm not anti-gun, I just don't think the CCW-pistolpia will play out quite the way you guys think it will.

Okay. You caught me being a bit inflammatory to draw folks out. ;) But I do, in general, stand by my statement.

You Todd, are an enigma. A gun carrying liberal (correct me if I'm wrong in that label). I don't mean any of this as an insult, but more a philisophical difference. Most people that I know that own and carry guns are right wing, NRA, self defense types. While you may question their ability to use a handgun in public, I do not. As I and others have said, you place too much confidence in the police. That also is not an insult. Their duties are wide and varied. They can not be there everytime something bad happens. The more good guys that have guns, the more likely someone will be there to stop someone like the SL p.o.s.

Furtheremore, the guys I know are licensed, trained, and practised. Most of them are military or retired military. I can only say that after many beers I have learned of their experience with firearms and combat. I can say this, if I was pinned down in a mall, I would be very glad to see any one of them-more so than your average cop.

While Charles sounds like a cowboy - I agree with every word he wrote. Nothing wrong with cowboys.

So, the guy who's made his living selling drugs and robbing people will hear on the news that the CCW's are now available, and say to himself "Hmm, maybe I should go back to law school..." ?

This is your 1st reasonable assertion re: this topic imo. However, I would argue that your basic mugger is not a murderer. A killer is a unique individual that has no regard for life at all. I believe out of all the criminals, those willing to take a life are the exception. Your average mugger will simply move on to greener pastures once he knows he lost the upper hand.

While certainly a related industry, I believe he will move on to throwing bricks through shop windows and take goods to sell at a pawn shop.

I don't think criminals stop to think too much about CCW, but it is a documented fact that most states with shall-issue CCW laws where plenty of people do, in fact, CCW, saw crime drop when folks started packing legally. Occasionally you hear about someone going through an airport metal detector and forgetting they had a gun with them - Barry Switzer and Eddie Van Halen come to mind. But CCW folks are generally as law-abiding as the day is long and criminals, by definition, are the opposite. I have never ever heard of a case where a CCW permit holder in VA got in trouble for misusing a gun. And rest assured, the anti-gunners would play it up to the hilt if it were to happen.

As someone who CCW's regularly and spends a lot of time in Wash. DC where all guns are banned, I can honestly say I would rather always be in VA. It's always safer here, despite the fact that DC has more law enforcment agencies and gun-toting G-men than any other big city (DC is a small city) in the US. It's amazing how, between the DC Police, BATF, US Capitol Police, Uniformed Secret Service, FBI, MP's, Metro Transit Police, US Postal Police and Diplomatic Security (whom am I missing?), you are exponentially more likely to be a victim of violent crime in DC, even in the good neighborhoods, than anywhere across the bridge in VA. And it's not because of popluation density either. Northern VA is very densely packed with people and has far fewer police. I've never come across a cop here who had a problem with CCW and I've been stopped several times when I was carrying and had to show my permit.

The gun law was in the 1880's to reduce deaths.


Just to clarify. I have no problem with CCW. Some people have professions that warrant it. Some people feel some need to have it. Fine by me. Either way you are probably well trained.

Just don't assert that it is a good idea for everyone to pack a gun.

Don't make the fallacious argument that if your are CCW you are protecting your wife and family. Because if you are at work, you can not protect them.

well, I know I'm an enigma, but there are plenty of gun owning liberals. It really isn't that much of a philosophical difference...liberalism has been hijacked by too many whackos with twisted/near-sighted agendas (much as conservatism has). I just try to be reasonable and measured in my life, and by extension, my politics. And I am willing to change my mind given adequate and compelling data/information. I believe in the constitution, including the 2nd amendment. I think there should be limits in the interpretation however. To me the more baffling philosophical rift is how conservatives can abide by some of the tenets in the patriot act. Stomps all over the constitution...

But that's another rant. Like I said, I believe that guns have their place in society. Sure, I'd like to live in a totally gun-free world, but since that will never happen, I want to tip the odds in my favor. But I'm not convinced that ubiquitous CCW is the answer to the problem. And I still worry about the abilities of citizens to act/react under fire. Law enforcement has rigorous training and strict guidelines in place. Yes, they are not perfect, but there is something. In addition, fairly extensive psychological testing is done before they even get to the academy. It just strikes me that you have a better chance of a PD reacting properly under fire than a private citizen. And given some of the people I see at the range, I certainly don't want them brandishing weapons in public.

Hell-I'll take it a step farther- It is a terrible idea for everyone to pack a gun! That would be truly scary.