People on this board throw the word "torture" around pretty easily.

Interrogation takes many forms and there is a line to cross before you get from interrogation to torture.

The nonsense about torture at Abu Grab is just that. nonesense

I went through more physical and mental anguish in college just trying to qualify for the chess team.

And for those of you who have not been in one of our US jails, treatment of inmates in the jail I was at is far worse than Gitmo and we didn't kill Americans or blow up buildings. Some of us just had too much to drink.

You distrust of American interrogators in favor of the worlds worst terrorists is appalling.

I am aposed to the death penaty in all cases but when it comes to these animals, I would error toward dead terrorist.

The difference is that taking off all your clothes and climbing onto a pile of other naked guys was completely voluntary on your part.

:D

Good one, but now the gloves are off, right Turbo_pro ?:D

I don't remember any naked pile of guys, I guess I joined a different kind of club than you.
I'll bet they thought you had a purty mouth.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1174001822.gif

Choice or not the calling that treatment torture was is laughable.

IMHO
When they murdered our Marines, they chose their treatment.







http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1174001797.jpg

When who murdered our marines? Please identify the guys in these pix and which marines they murdered. Should be easy for you, since you seem to have knowledge of their trials and convictions.

Edited - inappropriate pictures removed. -Z-man.

Thom, TMI on how much you are into piles of naked men.

I have less than no idea what these prisoners were or are accused of.
I will tell you that their treatment was more likely a result of their actions/ behavior while in custody that any action in the field.
In a military prison as with any other prison, the inmates out number the custodial staff. This will inherently create a dangerous situation for the staff. Order and routine are the goal and when an inmate (no matter what he is charge or conviction of) threatens that order, control must be reinstated so as to maintain a safe environment for all, both inmate and guard.
If I bring you food and you throw feces on me, you will earn a beating. If you fake injury or illness and during my attempt to assist you, I am placed in a challenging predicament your life will be in jeopardy. The inmates understand the rules and some choose to challenge them.
Tell me, what would you do? I know, send him to a therapist.

The confused man standing naked in the shower may be you for all I know.

The man with his hands cuffed behind his back, could be in any Orange County jail or any jail for that matter. I was subjected to this same treatment (sans underwear on the head) no conviction, minor offense. Drunk as I was I suggested the cop carried his penis in his holster. You know what, I deserved what I got. You know what else, I wasn't pointing an AK at anyone when I was taken into custody.

Maybe I'm on a different page then many others here. When guys walk out looking as fit and well-fed as those guys -- that's not torture in my book. Intimidation -- sure. Torture. Nah.

If you want torture, you need look no further then today's headlines from elsewhere in the world.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ality7_416.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ality8_416.jpg

There are many instances in history of torture being applied -- in WWII for example:

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/daws9.jpg

http://www.auschwitz.dk/doctor8.jpg

There are Americans who do understand what torture is*...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...POW_McCain.jpg

(* Just a statement of fact based on the picture. I'm not making a political endorsement)

Yes there are.

Whcih makes Abu Graib, waterboarding, Guanatanamo Bay, the policy of rendition- all the more sad.

Poor fella my country.

Apprently hes just confessed to shooting JFK and poisoning Phar Lap.

stu is on fiya...

Wow, throw some more hyperbole on. And, Ya know not much beats innuendo, but maybe innuendo-ad nauseam.

Very convincing!

I have had enough. It's time for a reality check.

Abu Graib= kiddy jail, send the bastards to Pelican Bay then watch the whining.


waterboarding= soon to be offered at a day spa near you.


Guanatanamo Bay= Tropical Caribbean All Inclusive resort. The only thing missing is the Girls Gone Wild cameras.


Now chopping off a head, that's sounds serious to me. But I guess we forgot who the enemy is.

What are you disputing exactly?

That coercive/torturous practices have not occurred in Gunatanomo and Abu Graib? Well documented. People have died.
That a secret network of detention facilities is not being operated in Eastern Europe and various other places around the world like Diego Garcia? Also well documented.
That the CIA is not abducting people in countries like Germany and Italy and shipping to countries like Syria (yep, the bad guys) and Egypt where they are coerced/tortured under the policy of “Rendition”? Well documented.
That the US is using practices like “waterboarding” and these have been approved at the highest level of the Bush Administration? On the record.

That these practices are at odds with noble foundations on which the United States is built, and in fact are incredibly damaging to the USA at many levels? Now, of course you may argue that- its just my opinion.

I am not as willing to show offensive material as some, but let us remember who we are at war with.

Hands tied behind his back, offering no threat what so ever and the bastards chopped his head off.

Let's see, Nick deserved it right?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1174009130.jpg

stu - American military blew the whistle on others in their ranks . . . and those others went to jail. Your posts attempt to promulgate the notion that this is SOP for the US.

"noble foundations" :rolleyes: Foundations aside, which is it stu, is the US noble or not? . .. in your opinion.

I said the principles were noble. A country cant be noble or ignoble, any more than a country can have friends. Nation states can only have interests.

You cant sperate, IMO, America today from the principles on which it was established. Those priciples are deeply admirable. But there is a disconeect, and in the ROW, where the actions of the current US Administration, and therefore America, are seen to be incongrunet with these ideals, this is casuing something of an issue for the US. But- that not soemhing that is widely addressed doemstically, IME.

Most of the world gets a picture of US interests from an agenda driven media that hates the very noble foundation of which you speak. Nations may not be Noble but they can certainly exhibit "noble intent." The US leads the world in this arena.
Jealousy, envy and contempt are the penalties for being the last world super power. The free nations of the world owe us their loyalty for the freedom we've protected for them in the last 100 years and the peoples of the world owe us their gratitude for the humanitarian support unmatched by any politic in the history of the world.
Could we do more? yes and will continue to..........

They hate us but they want to be us. You do what is necessary to survive and some will love you and more will hate you. The childish notions that the US is evil are just that. We are a great nation forced to play in the mud because the avoidance of getting dirty promises devastating consequence.

Somehow you missed the gaunt figure hobbling on crutches, as opposed to well-fed prisoners with excercise time and access to lawyers.

BTW - After Pearl Harbor, how many Japanese POW's were tried on civil or criminal charges for that attack or others (excluding war crimes at the end of hostilities)???

My opinion as well, these practices are not what we the American people should accept as normal or necessary.

Yup here we go again. The old "the Terrorists hate us for our love of freedom and way of life" crap. Turbo's point seems to be that since there are really bad guys out there doing really bad things to us, its ok for us to sweep up a bunch of potential suspects and wring and info we can get from them by whatever means we can. After all, it works on "24". The fact is, that if you look at the numbers released by the military on Gitmo, more than half have been released as no longer enemy combatants. To me this is the same a saying that they never were. So tell me, after 4 years of holding folks that clearly had the most tenous like to anything bad, how do we justify this system? Its a horrible double standard. The US holds itself up and a moral nation, yet we try to exclude ourselves from the reach of any international court. As a nation we feel free to point at the human rights abuses of others, yet we don't beleive enough in our own to handle these people in our normal system.

I have read so many claims about the enemy combatant status being a long standing and accepted way of dealing with combatants picked up during a war. The difference, is that in most cases, we are not pick guys up off of a battlefield. They are being turned into us with the claim that they are bad guys. The whole issue of review is critical here. It does not have the nice black and white definition that one would have during a regular war. They have considered people to be terrorists simply because they had some tenous connection to an organization supporting a "suspected" terrorist organization. Something that is suspect isn't exactly a high standard.

I am not saying that we should not gather up the real bad guys. My point is that we have gathered up many many more (using just official numbers) that happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have made a lot of the fact that some of the guys released for Gitmo came back and attacked us again. No names or details of course. I don't know about, but after being held in solitary and being interrogated for years, I might decide to join the bad guys after all.

The bottom line is that we as a nation either beleive that we have high standards and live by them or we act like a bunch of hypocrites.