Chinese Most favored Trade Status?
 

Free trade with China has its benefits and disasters. As we watch the decline of manufacturing
in America, it has come to mind that this must be part of a master plan to make America more
and more dependent on foreign imports. Is this true? Seems self destructive! Is it the only way
American companies can compete among other American companies…Good question!
What a concept!

China’s Most Favored Trade Status! Why did this happen? Was it the brainpower and
great international business sense of conservative thinking that opened up the Chi-Comm to
Capitalism? Would this idea introduce a third world country and philosophy to
personal wealth which ultimately would lead to the demise of there communist state.
Did it miscalculate the consequences to American industry? You didn’t need a soothsayer to
see this coming! It reminds me of how quiet freight trains are. Was the benefit worth the risk?

These are revolutionary economic concepts that will eventually leading to the demise of our
middle class and our political system. Why do I say this? Simply put!.America doesn’t have
900 million slave laborers being paid 12 cents an hour to do our manufacturing and world services.
We cannot compete on the global market in manufacturing house hold goods precisely because
we have to pay reasonable wages and tolerate extreme environmentalism. Food industry yes,
because we have a great source of undocumented slave laborers to compete. This is not good for
American either.

The concept seems self destructive. Win the battle but lose the war.

China has had a taste of capitalism and is flourishing…last years GDP 3-4 trillion.!

Does America still need the “American Know How”. ascertained from its once powerhouse
manufacturing ability or Is it the dreadnaught of the past that fits nowhere in the scope of the
future?
I am constantly reminded at work about “Intellectual Property” which is the new buzz
word for “Know how” …Corporations understand this as the key attribute for success.
It absolutely is. We still maintain and develop esoteric technologies that are world class.
But for how long? Will we lose our technological edge? What sustains this?

It emanated from reasonable competition!

Remember: the worst thing you can do for your quality and technology is to destroy your
competition. . Yet worse, don’t try to compete because the playing fields isn’t flat or even reasonable.

I would love to see Communism and the strangle it forces on its proletarians die!
But lets not misunderstand the long term affect with a free market utilizing a descending
playing field. I’m all for free trade when the world is level. We need to revise the playing
field to protect ourselves.

The only escape America has is hoping the Chinese demand extremely higher wages
and the country is overrun by extreme environmental policy or we control Chinese
domestic imports. We need to level the playing field! There are many ways to do it fairly.
If we don’t it sure looks like conspiracy to me!

This is the situation we have created …Do we have the wisdom to look back at home again?

It may be too late….

My thoughts

Bob

You think you got an illegal immigration problem now - try making all that "stuff" here.

We did and didnt have one then!

Bob

Not to be argumentative - but we also consumed a lot less then.

Immigration was pretty much shut off by the depression, war and popular sentiment. After the war until the 60s it was tons of internal migration from the South and Purto Rico. And immigration has been high since Reagan took office and has grown with our very modern economy. If you want to start making garden hoses, clothes and everything else you see in Walmart - you would need to quadruple it again.

Look at it this way. We get all those hard working folks in China working for us with no increase in school taxes and no future social security payments. Does that make it sound any better?:rolleyes:

And we have a winner and our new replacement for Fastpat!

Everyone, a round of applause for our next contestant.

Yes there was legal and controlled imigration until Reagan..Maybe Brooklyn hasnt been coverted into Mexico but in the So-West it has...Anyway- this thread is not about illegal Imigration..That will be my next.

What makes you think they will be working for you? Maybe now.. with there low quality Junk...But when your job disapears and outsourced to China you will think different...

The only thing resembling communism in China is their government system. Their economy is more capitalistic than ours.

But I thought the MFN thing went away when China became a member of the WTO, no? Didn't that already happen? Besides, MFN is more of a face-saving thing for the Chicoms anyway. All it means is they don't get any worse a deal than other member of the WTO.

For full disclosure I will tell you it is directly trade related. It aint going anywhere. (Sometimes I wish it would..) So maybe I don't look at this issue as most folks do.

The state of the ecomomy keep immigration pretty low until Reagan. I am not an open borders guy. Low wage, how skill immigration does not make economic anymore. Cant wait for your next post.

But where are you going to get the workers to work these manufacturing jobs?

Otherwise, I dont buy much junk. I try not to. But you are going to have a tough time convincing the average US consumer.:cool:

The Chinese have four things going for them that we don't.

(1) They're EXTREMELY focused and disciplined.
(2) They have an EXTREME will to win ("win" meaning "defeat the U.S. at its own game)
(3) They have far more potential resources than we do.
(4) They have the ability to think long-term (we don't anymore).

The Chinese are incredibly savvy and are systematically dismantling their biggest adversary to being the world's superpower brick by brick. They're extending us BILLIONS of dollars in credit to buy the worthless junk they export to our greedy and insatiable citizenry. All they need to do is call in all that debt and our economy would crumble overnight. And day by day, we give more control of our own economy away - all in the name of plasma-screen TVs, .mp3 players, particle-board cheapo furniture and whatever other crap they can pump out.

They're exploiting our gluttony, lust, short-sightedness and laziness in order to make us defeat ourselves. Brilliant, really.

(1) They said the same things about the Japanese. So much semi-racist non-sence.
(2) They have an exteme will to be raised out of poverty.
(3) Oil? Farmland? What kind of resources?
(4) They have had a one child per couple rule that has been in place for 30 odd years. A demographers nightmare and a socialists dream. Their population is about to peak as life expectancy goes up. They need these savings.

The Chinese are freeing up their economy and are working hard and allowing hundreds of millions to climb out of poverty. How is this bad?

Porsche-O-phile,

They only thing you forgot was:

900,000,000 slavelaborers...

No environazis

No labor laws

and inport in the US for FREE!

Win Win Win for them....Geez...How myopic some people can be...the Brooklyn guy think China is going to bend over for US....Fricken please.

Our secret weapon against the Chicoms is lawyers! Right now China graduates more engineering students per year than we graduate total students. But as their middle class emerges, property rights and recourse against gov't. outrages become more important. And more and more of their kids are getting interested in becoming lawyers. Since nothing in China is more important than being rich and showing it off, becoming a lawyer is likely to be the next big trend there among their students. And with their population, they'll soon have more lawyers than we do. And that's where we win. Lawyers will ruin that country like they're doing here. Labor lawyers? Oh my God, is China ripe for that. Tort lawyers will have a field day once they get a foothold in China. Just you watch. Lawyers are our ace up the sleeve. They will bring China to her knees and they will become litigious, then fat then lazy and then they'll be just like us but their problems will be on a much larger scale.

Last I checked, both of our economies are going gangbusters. The US has the lowest unemployment rate of any 1st world country. Free trade lifts up all involved and lets each country specialize in what they do best.

Let the Chinese make sneakers. Build a sneaker factory in the US and see how many people apply for repetitive manufacturing jobs, even at "livable" wages.

There are really only 2 ways to engage with the Chinese.

The first is to shun them, try to play to our cultural differences and treat them as adversaries on the world stage.

The second is to embrace and partner with them through trade and diplomatic discourse to build a mutually beneficial relationship with each other.

One is the way of fools and the other the way of the wise.

Couldn't have said it better alf. Our economies are so intertwined now that if one economy falters, the other will suffer with it. This requires both nations to play nicely together. I see this as a good thing.

At least until the subject of Taiwan comes up. Just wait. China will eventually get sick of their schit and make a serious move to "re-unite" them with the mainland. When that happens, the U.S. is forced to honor its commitment to Taiwan and when THAT happens. . .

You get the idea.

I seriously doubt that the Taiwanese and the PRC will come to arms. The PRC will not throw away all that they have worked to build in the last 50 years towards stability and prosperity to get that island back.

Keep Peace and Prosperity going and the two will eventually bridge their political differences.

Grow up and take a high school level economics course and learn enough to stop spouting senseless drivel like this. Time to move into the 20th century. Then you'll only be a hundred years behind.

Made in China is what's keeping inflation down in this country. Don't think the powers that be aren't aware of that. We have become largely a service economy, and the cost of services keeps increasing here. We just have to hope China will keep the value of the RMB low relative to the dollar. So far, so good.

MRM,

Your right I didnt take a high school economics class with you at Moscow High School.. You know you dont have to get upset and tell me to grow up...Are you always a loose cannon..? If you think for any reason selling off your industrial abilities and Know How is moving into the 21 century I think you and I could take a history class too. Whatta ya think... we can both be indoctrinated together....Comrade!

Guys,

I live and work in China and have so for the past 7 years and in Asia for 15 years. I feel I can comment on this. All us Westerners are in trouble, not because of government policies, its people and the work attitudes. I will generalize here but Asians are prepared to work much harder and longer than westerners are to further themselves. The inequalities in trade deals will level itself out sooner or later to make a level playing field as mentioned above and then who will win. IMHO the asians have a much greater hunger than most of us westerners.

I'll be sure to think of that when I'm at work until 10pm again tonight finishing off another 65-hour week.

Plenty of Chinese do just that for $100-$200 a month and, sure it's cheap there, but not that cheap. Basically, you could take the entire US population size out of China and not make a dent in their labor pool. That's a LOT of people, which means the price of labor there will be cheap for far longer than any of here will be alive.

According to statistics I read. Or maybe made up:

Americans work the most hours per year. Second is the Koreans and third the Japanese.

I am sure for white collar work it is the Japanese. Six days a week, long hours in the office and drinking after work.

I doubt China's 900,000,000 peasant, subsistence farmers were canvassed in that poll.

Don't get me wrong - I agree that in general, the proportion of slackers to hard workers here is a lot higher than in China. Plenty of fat, lazy, stupid people in this country - but I'm sure they exist in China also. . . Just not in the same proportion.

By the same token, there are plenty of dedicated, hard-working people here. Just not enough.

What happens in China if you don't work?

You starve to death.

Here?

You get a cushy apartment, and food. All of the people I know on wellfare seem to manage to have cable, Playstations, cell phones, and cars. Working is for suckers.

All I wanted to do was spout my concerns about America giving away its manufacturing prowess. I am a conservative and dont like alot of things happening in our country (for a while) everything is not all Dubya's fault but he sure knows how to hand ammo to the enemy to use on him. anyway- I dont feel converting to a service based economy is a good thing either..service base economics is not a goal..its the outcome of failed policy. A few previous comments about attorneys and labor advocates are a thorn to us but without any constitutional rights in China it becomes purely academic....We have gone over the slippery slope... IMHO

Bob

You could starve in China even if you did work. Though those days are long gone. You think it's bad there for folks who don't work, you ought to see how it is for their prison population. Our old chain gangs got nothing on them. They are not squeamish about meting out punishment.

Manufacturing is important. And these was a very interesting thread here a while back about how the value of American manufactures is at an all time high. But like farming, it takes less workers. More high tech, more machinery. It is still a big part of our economy - but less as a percentage than years ago.

It would be a skewed sample to ask around here (as it is a Porsche board), but ask most folks what their Grandad did for a living - and would they want the same job under the same conditions? I most cases - it would be a "no".

Gaijin,

I agree with you. but I still want to emphasize the importance of all these factors. Will China someday recognize human rights?
interesting.....My grandfather was a mercinary in WWI and ran with Pershing chasing Poncho Villa. He was a professional soldier most of his life. There is no question we have created an economic system that rewards us the luxury of being fat, dumb and happy. I 'm fat dumb and happy with a 930 and dont feel like giving it up...

Bob

Why would China recognize human rights? It does not serve their interests and the world is happy to trade with them all day long for empty promises on or flat denial of the issue. Their moral values are not our moral values, which is very difficult for Americans to understand. We're so used to someone getting hurt and being able to sue someone else for it or blame anything on someone else, that we just can't imagine how a country with more than 4x our population and an unelected government can treat its people with such indifference. If you slip and fall in China, it's your fault. No lawyer is gonna make you rich. If you get caught trafficking heroin in China, you will be shot a few hours after your conviction and your family will probably get billed for the bullet. No 10 yrs. of appeals while on death row, no protests in front of the prison when you get executed. That's just how it works. The nice thing about China is, whether you like it or not, everyone pretty much knows which line not to cross. Cross it and you get whacked. Here it's all a grey area and depends solely on how good a lawyer you can afford.

China is coming round slowly on human rights. It is a slow boat and as mentioned above some of the changes are not really in China's interest. External pressure is pushing some changed. My factory aims to be 100% legal in all aspects (American Multinational). Others are not but are being forced to buy the customers.
Back to original posting, I am concerned companies are giving away all their knowledge. Short term gains manufacturing in low labour cost subcontractors is very popular. 10 years later though you have lost all the skills and the knowledge to develop further.
Service based economies can only develop so far. Should be an interesting next 10 years.

Bruce,

So, if I'm reading you accuratly you own a business in China? I assume your not American because of the way you spelled "Labour". Kind of like "litre". If so, what do you manufacture and in ten years what impact do you suspect it will make on your home country or any other? I suspect after the next ten years will really impact American industry and capabities. For an example: I am in my mid forties and have been working in American aerospace for 25 years. I am the youngest of most engineers. There is a very limited sourse of young blood with any know how because they are from the Xbox generation and lack general mechanical skills. Will we be capable of putting a man on Mars? good question.

Thanks
Bob

You are spot-on.

This is why I find software outsourcing particularly disturbing.

I don't think these two gentlemen can be compared. FastPat just cut and pasted articles here while this person actually wrote this. If someone takes the time to write something, I'll usually read it, but if I see a "cut and paste" with no original thoughts added, I usually pass by without reading it.

When I was having a fit about this years ago, the common cookie-cutter response from the right-wingers on this board was "US companies have the right to find the cheapest employees, outsource to make profits, all in the name of capitalism, etc, etc..."

What? Short-term gains not working anymore? Go figure you sellouts...I mean traitors.

Bob,

I am Australian and run a factory for an American Mulltinational. Western companies are giving away all the knowledge in Manufacturing and also are losing the R&D skill. A new process has been developed (slightly pushed by myself but these guys have learnt from this) that will result in cheaper and more efficient products. We make low tech paint brushes, cleaning brushes and applicators but I have been working on and off with US companies for 18 years and the design skills have dropped off immensly for simple and more complicated products. This is in line with what you mention above, there are few young good engineers coming through. Right now I have good Engineers in China/Hong Kong and these people are continuing to develop as they are exposed to more. I think this will accelerate as companies like do not need to own the manufacturer but subcontract to further reduce cost.

Being Aust the impact on Aust is similar to America, less manufacturing and more movement to a service based economy. Australia is fairly efficient in Agriculture and blessed with natural resources so I think we will be the farmland and mine for Asia as the developing economies open up. I am glad I am not my childrens age, it will be much harder for them to compete with the extra competition from Asian people.

Bruce,

Thanks...This is a much bigger issue than reasonable people want to accept. I hope things will somehow balance out...Not going to hold my breath...

Thanks

It will never be resolved as long as the primary goal of American corporations is return to the shareholders rather than modernization of antequated facilities. It has been pointed out before that WWII destroyed manufacturing capabilities in many countries, but not in the US. So, in those countries, they started with a clean sheet of paper, built more efficient facilities and blew us away. Steel production, automobiles, elecronics. We pay management to gut our capacity and just sit back, reaping the temporary and unsustainable rewards.