Was Osama Right? - WSJ editorial

[jyl]

And another fact the author overlooks, lets not forget Chechnya (sp).

Here the Russians were tough as hell on Muslim insurgents, just look up how many civilians and soldiers have been killed in that war, how many cities bombed out, Putin is no shrinking violet, appx 15,000 Russian soldiers dead and considerably more Cechens.

And before that, the Soviets were pretty tough in Afghanistan, another 15,000 Russian soldiers dead.

Yet the Russians have continued to suffer major Islamic terrorist attacks, in Moscow and Beslan and elsewhere in the heartland. Being "tough" hasn't worked so well for the Russians, has it?

That's my point. Being blindly and stupidly "tough" does not work. Being smartly and selectively "tough" does work.

Going into Afghanistan was smart tough. Going into Iraq was stupid tough. Our current govt doesn't seem to distinguish between smart and stupid.

[TheMentat]

Originally posted by jyl
His analysis is crap.

The article actually serves its purpose quite well... It does a great job of rallying support for the current administration's plans among those with little knowledge of world history.

But through the lens of historical context, his arguments start to break down pretty fast!

[Tobra]

Interesting article, if somewhat shallow and a bit lame. Someone must have cut part of it out prior to my reading it, because he does not propose any actions, he relates some events, reactions to these events, and what he believes is the thinking behind those reactions.

Cool Chick, if you did actually read that, why is there no evidence of comprehension in your replies? Stage 2 is not the world caliphate, it is them attacking us here. That has already happened more than once, or did you miss that in the papers?

The conflict is Muslim vs Jew at its heart, which is ignored here. The US is on Israel's side, right or wrong, that is how it is seen over there, which makes us evil Jew lovers.

OBL does not want us to leave the Middle East, he wants us to leave the planet. A billion Muslims, if not with him are definitely not against him, or there would be at least some outcry regarding the things he has fomented from other Muslims.

The Fort Dix Six and Islamaburg in NY state are the tip of the iceberg. We have a HUGE population of felons who have converted to Islam while in the pen and many will get out eventually. They are violent, know plenty about killing and creating chaos and are Americans.

[tabs]

Originally posted by jyl


That's my point. Being blindly and stupidly "tough" does not work. Being smartly and selectively "tough" does work.

Going into Afghanistan was smart tough. Going into Iraq was stupid tough. Our current govt doesn't seem to distinguish between smart and stupid.

The Soviets saw what happened in Iran with the Ayotola, saw it happening in Aganistan and decided to nip it in the bud, so that it wouldn't spread to the 40 Million Muslims in the USSR.

Again Quanitative over Qualitative. Thats how Western Bureaucracies work.

[tabs]

Originally posted by Tobra
?

The conflict is Muslim vs Jew at its heart



We have a HUGE population of felons who have converted to Islam while in the pen and many will get out eventually. They are violent, know plenty about killing and creating chaos and are Americans.

NO its not Muslim vs Jew at heart. Its Islam vs Every other religion. Islam historically is driven to convert or kill infidels. To spread the word of Allah around the world.

The Black American Muslims are not the same breed as the Jihadies.

[the]

Originally posted by tabs
Islam historically is driven to convert or kill infidels. To spread the word of Allah around the world.

That seems to be the sad truth, that no one seems to be able to credibly refute (I've asked many times for someone to refute it, only to be met with silence each time), but many seem to want to just ignore.

[alf]

Originally posted by the
That seems to be the sad truth, that no one seems to be able to credibly refute (I've asked many times for someone to refute it, only to be met with silence each time), but many seem to want to just ignore.

I understand that the big MO (Mohammad) himself lived peacefully with Jews and Christians and treated them as people of the book and acknowledged that the Jews, Christians and Muslims worshipped the same God they do.

But that is beside the point. Even if Soviet style tactics might work better, do we really want to be like the Soviets?

[jyl]

Here is a wikipedia summary of Soviet military losses during 10 years of war in Afghanistan. Basically, 15K dead, 54K casualties (excluding >400K illnesses) of which 10K permanently disabled. And lots of vehicles.

It's kind of interesting to compare this with US losses during 5 years (so far) of war in Iraq. 3.4K dead (excluding 700-1K military contractors), 25K casualties, don't know number disabled (although >100K soldiers returned from Iraq have been approved for disability benefits by the VA, don't know how severe those disabilities are). Fewer vehicles.

So, at this rate, after 10 years in Iraq, we might have 7K US dead, 50K US casualties (but 200K to 400K soldiers receiving disability benefits of some sort). And some number of vehicles.

We are doing better than the Soviets :-)

Between December 25th, 1979 and February 15th 1989 a total of 620,000 soldiers served with the forces in Afghanistan (though there were only 80,000-104,000 force at one time in Afghanistan). 525,000 in the Army, 90,000 with border troops and other KGB sub-units, 5,000 in independent formations of MVD Internal Troops and police. A further 21,000 personnel were with the Soviet troop contingent over the same period doing various white collar or manual jobs.

The total irrecoverable personnel losses of the Soviet Armed Forces, frontier and internal security troops came to 14,453. Soviet Army formations, units and HQ elements lost 13,833, KGB sub units lost 572, MVD formations lost 28 and other ministries and departments lost 20 men. During this period 417 servicemen were missing in action or taken prisoner; 119 of these were later freed, of whom 97 returned to the USSR and 22 went to other countries.

There were 469,685 sick and wounded, of whom 53,753 or 11.44%, were wounded, injured or sustained concussion and 415,932 (88.56%) fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed or contracting serious diseases, 92%, or 10,751 men were left disabled.[31]


Remains of Soviet trucks in Kandahar, Afghanistan, 2002.Material losses were as follows:

21 aircraft
333 helicopters
147 tanks
1,314 IFV/APCs
433 artillery guns and mortars
1,138 radio sets and command vehicles
510 engineering vehicles
11,369 trucks and petrol tankers