+1!!!!! Handed over without a shot being fired...

BS!

How many Citizenship ceremonies have you attended?

I have attended 2. My Mother (English) and my wife (Mexican). Neither were in Spanish, and the 2nd one was in Houston.

Rick, you won't pay $10 for a grapefruit. If farm workers were paid $15/hr, prices would go up, but not that much. More likely, you would see a reduction in farming, or some sort of special mechanization (meaning less workers). And the most likely result, you will see farming reduced in the US and food will be imported.

I just had a pool put in. I can pretty much guarantee that most, if not all of the workers were illegal. Why? Hot, back breaking work. I don't care if youi paid $25-30/hr, you wouldn't get long lines of people to do the work.

My wife talked to a few of them. Most of them don't want to stay here. Most of them do stay here because they are having a much harder time crossing back and forth across the border. Many of these guys were embarrassed at the May 1st protests. They aren't looking for green cards, they are looking for work.

I have to agree with JYL on these stats. If you were able to round up everyone, there wouldn't be enough people to fill the slack.

My company can't find the mechanical people it needs. We build and overhaul Large engines and Compressors, mostly in the Oil and Gas industry. There used to be a good source of skilled, trained mechanical workers: The US Military. But with the serious cut in the size of the Military, that source is gone. We are trying to setup apprentice programs in the community colleges, but most students do not want to become a machinist or mechanical assembler.

My company does not hire illegals, at least as far as I can tell. But I have no doubt that many of our sub-contractors do.

I don't really like the Bill. But at least there is one to do _something_!!!

Rick: You are correct. We are in the mess we are in because for the past 50+years we have failed to enforce the laws. I am not convinced that we will actually enforce anything.

Careful for what you wish.

I was strongly opposed to an amnesty program, but I'm warming to the proposed legislation.

Legal immigrants once did the work provided by today's illegals.

I can't recount three recent instances in which illegals were employed, and I indirectly benefitted. Yet, I said nothing or complained to authorities. In one instance, illegals were employed to remove trash from the median and right-of-way before mowing crews cut the grass. In the second instance, illegals were used to install sod on ground by a newly-widened highway. Thousands of people drove by these workers, and as far as I can tell, no one complained to the contractors or to state DOT. So while we are easy to blame elected officials for selling us out, I can't help but feel we've been doing pretty good at selling ourselves out.

How can it be OK for us to indirectly benefit from products/services provided by illegals, and at the same time be offended when these illegals use public services and assistance? Where is the widespread backlash on Wall Street against firms that employ illegals?

That said, the only way I'd support amnesty of any type is if the Mexico/US border was sealed tight. Give a visa after one donates 1 year of labor towards construction of a border wall. If we don't seal the border, we'll just be flooded with a new crop of illegals.

I assume my brother's Naturalization Ceremony satisfies where you were headed with that? Regardless, I am willing to eat a bit of crow here. My observation was at least partially incorrect. Where I live there was a HUGE stink a few years ago about holding the Naturalization Ceremony in Spanish. I did some quick searching over the last couple of days and found some info from Arizona and one broken link in the NY Times from 1990s, but nothing definitive. It *appears* that what has been happening is that the Oath is always in English, but everything else is sometimes not in English. Can't prove it or disprove it, so to be on the safe side I'll just assume I was wrong. WAFAI.

Now while I pick the feathers out of my teeth.... My position on this issue is not borne of xenophobia or some obsessive "obey the law" compulsion. It's based on purpose. The primary purpose of government is to protect its citizens. I would note that I think many things that the gov't does are outside its proper purview, but, regardless, the primary purpose is protection. To that end, gov't has a responsibility to know who is coming across the border and control who is let in; those entering need to be vetted (no history of rape/murder/etc. for example) and need to be compatible with our national interest (if we need engineers or farm workers, for example). I would submit that nobody - the gov't especially - has even minimal knowledge of the character or skill sets of the 12 million or so illegal entrants. I would also submit that is gross negligence, and giving them amnesty only compounds the negligence. Furthermore, we have established one set of criteria for immigrants from East of the Atlantic (difficult) and another for those from South of our border (none). Why should my European neighbors have to jump through hoops and spend thousands to get their green card but the vineyards are full of illegals who did not? This is also, in my opinion, negligent and even racist.

One of the base premises of being a "nation of laws" is to equally and fairly apply law. As in: to everyone. We don't do that, and that is a societal time-bomb. We also absolutely have to recognize that creating a whole class of illegal entrants is creating a class of people that is exploitable and is a class that has to live largely outside the law. Another societal time-bomb.

I posted more elaborate comments about what I think we should be doing one page earlier and I'll let them stand, but I will add that the core program that I advocate is one with which I have direct experience. I was a "guest worker" in Germany. They have lots of them, mostly Polish and Turkish, as their population is insufficient for their economic needs. When I entered Germany I submitted my Passport for processing. They verified my employment and who knows what else. One day one of the local officials knocked on my door to introduce himself and, undoubtedly, to verify that I was living where I said I did. Each year I submitted my passport to renew my permit - I assume they checked to ensure I didn't develop a police record. Nothing heavy-handed, nothing onerous, always courteous, but definitely meeting their primary responsibility as a gov't protecting its citizens. I have been through the process and it simply isn't difficult or a problem. If Germany, with their constant self-flagellation and determination not to repeat their history of the 1930s and 40s can find a civilized and respectful way to monitor immigration and guest workers, just what on earth is our excuse for our negligence?

Me, 3, two girlfriends, one German, one English, one friends wife's Romanian. All were in English.

amnesty no deportation yes :D

If there is Amnesty and we know American's won't take these jobs, who will fill all the sudden vacancies?

Why is it, no one is getting to the major sources of the problem? If a certain type of economy is not economically feasible in a first world nation, but is feasible in a third world nation, then why don’t we export that economy out?

There will always be an alternative economy for growing peanuts and tomatoes; if those jobs don’t make sense here they should go away. It’s a third world nation that would benefit the most and we can lessen the burden we are facing right now.

If we are truly living in a global economy why do we hold onto industries as if no other alternative for those goods exist.

Cut the welfare and put the homeless to work. If people don't get a free ticket they have 2 choices, one get a job, two break the law, which with any luck, if they do, they will be shot & killed!!

I still say we need to be shooting them as they cross the boarder. How many of you check your local police arrest in the paper, notice all the Driving without a license ,Hit & Run & Driving without Insurance arrest, that most have latino names?? Notice your state insurance rates are higher when you have more illegals???http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1179933361.jpg

Case in Point ...
 

My Grandaughter recently had the need to transported to a hospital by ambulance a total of 7 miles. The charge for a 3 hour stay in the ER was $540 - Doc included. The ambulance trip was routine no IV, no machines, no issues for them to deal with ... just transport her 7 miles. The Ambulance bill for the 15 minute ride? $954.

My insurance company paid $443. When I inquired of the ambulance company about the exhorbinant charge I was told the county sets the rate they can charge. I called the county and a very nice gentleman explained to me that because I have insurance I not only have to pay for the service provided but I also get charged an additional amount to cover the cost of those who can't pay. I asked him if that included illegals ... his response? "Oh yes, in our county over half of the 911 calls for ambulance are transporting illegals."

How you like them apples?

Now I know why my wife's recent 2 hour (including recovery time) outpatient surgery cost $44,000. Yeah, I checked ... the rates also include a "cost recovery" factor.

Say, I wonder if I went to there country if I'd get comparable treatment ... free medical services, free schools including meals for the kiddies and keeping the court system in overload ... actually, no wondering required ...

That totally sucks. If you don't mind the hit to your credit score, just refuse to pay it. No mortgage company will ever care about a medical collection on your credit report, though it will ding your score for a while.

The divisions on this are clearly very geographic. Seems most of the Border state politicians are against it, but here in the NE, I think people would welcome an Amnesty.

We have full employment as is and we need more people, plain and simple. Chasing them off just shoots yourself in the foot. Give 'em amnesty and make 'em pay taxes.

I concur with Chuck on this one.

One Short Amendment
The Amnesty Compromise Needs a Caveat

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, May 25, 2007; A19

As the most attractive land for would-be immigrants, America has the equivalent of the first 100 picks in the NBA draft. Yet through lax border control and sheer inertia, it allows those slots to be filled by (with apologies to Bill Buckley) the first 100 names in the San Salvador phone book.

The immigration compromise being debated in Congress does improve our criteria for selecting legal immigrants. Unfortunately, its inadequacies in dealing with illegal immigration -- specifically, in ensuring that 10 years from now we will not have a new cohort of 12 million demanding amnesty -- completely swamp the good done on legal immigration.

Today, preference for legal immigration is given not to the best and the brightest waiting on long lists everywhere on Earth to get into America, but to family members of those already here. Given that America has the pick of the world's energetic and entrepreneurial, this is a stunning competitive advantage, stunningly squandered.

The current reform would establish a point system for legal immigrants in which brains and enterprise count. This is a significant advance. But before we get too ecstatic about finally doing the blindingly obvious, note two caveats:

(a) This new point system doesn't go into effect for eight years -- eight years of a new flood of immigrants chosen not for aptitude but bloodline. And who knows if a different Congress eight years from now will keep the current bargain?

(b) It's not enough to just create a point system in which credit is given for education, skills and English competence. These points can be outweighed by points given for -- you guessed it -- family ties, which are already built into the proposed point system. There are already amendments on the Senate floor to magnify the value of being a niece rather than a nurse. ( Barack Obama is proposing to abolish the point system entirely in five years.) A point system can be manipulated to give far more weight to family than skills -- until it becomes nothing but a cover for the old chain-migration system.

As for the bill's provisions about illegal immigration, let's not quibble: It grants the essentials of amnesty. True, there is a $5,000 fine (for a family of five!) attached to registering for legal status in the United States. But the truly significant penalty for illegal immigration is deportation -- which undoes everything the immigrant has built in America. When the feds raid a sweatshop, the fear is not that the agent will grab you and yell, "We are here to collect a fine." The fear is that he will yell, "We are here to deport you back to the subsistence and misery you fled in China."

From the moment this bill is signed, every illegal alien who does not have a criminal record can register with the U.S. government for temporary legal status. Moreover, as soon as the president certifies that certain border enforcement triggers have been met, this cohort of 12 million becomes eligible for the new Z visa -- renewable until death-- which allows them to stay and work and travel and reenter.

This is amnesty -- and I would be all in favor of it if I believed in the border enforcement mechanisms in this bill. If these are indeed the last illegal immigrants to come in, let us generously and humanely take them out of the shadows. But if we don't close the border, that generous and humane gesture will be an announcement to the world that the smart way to come to America is illegally.

In this bill, unfortunately, enforcement at the border is all bureaucratic inputs and fancy gadgets: principally, a doubling of the Border Patrol to 28,000, lots of high-tech sensors and four unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). And 370 miles of fence -- half of what Congress had mandated last year.

Does anyone imagine these will stop the flood? Four UAVs? And how does 370 miles of fence close a border of 2,100 miles? And if fences work (of course they do: look at the San Diego fence), why not build one all the way?

The amnesty is triggered upon presidential certification that these bureaucratic benchmarks are met -- regardless of what is actually happening at the border. What vacuous nonsense. The trigger must be something real. I propose a single amendment, short and very concrete: "The amnesty shall be declared the morning after the president has certified (citing disinterested studies) that illegal immigration across the southern border has been reduced by 90 percent." That single provision would guarantee passage of this comprehensive reform because most Americans would be glad to grant a generous amnesty -- if they can be assured it would be the last.

I live in LA. and have seen it deteriorate to a toilet in the last 20 years. The fiscal health is fatal and it is allarmingly nothing like what it was growing up here...Ever been to Tijuanna?...looks like that but worse. scary

THIS IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE FACING AMERICA TODAY FORGET TERRORISM B.S. Read 59GS above....

More people die in America because of gangs than those killed in Iraq. annually!

The illegals will hijack the political system as we know it and transform our system to theres ....Gotta love Mexico...


This country is ill....This is total Bull sh-t...I have to subsidize these 3rd worlders who deface my country, break the law, create the majority of gangs and tag and have to listen to there sh-tty music. Drag everything down to there barrio level including the educational system. I had to move to RC to get away from this disaster...This issue will ultimately devour this country and destroy it faster than terrorism ever will. I personally dont care about this terrorist BS anymore its a roos to keep your attention from the real issue. The perpetrators are from south of the border. 20 Mil will turn to 100mil after amnesty There immediate family members will be greeted in at any age with full Socail Security benefits. (3 out of 4 will be Democrats) and they will vote in Poncho Villa III Just look who they voted in in LA as Mayor (A former communist sympathiser and thug) There will simply be no place for traditional values. Socialism at your and my expence. If you think I'm Crazy..wait and see..Its already too late...

Jim 727 and I agree that no vote should be cast for any politician from any side who supports amnesty. They dont need to say the A word read between the lines...

Rick lee,

As you can tell this issue makes me crazy. You hail from Virginia and look at this issue in a pragmatic way. Your life has not been affected by it like mine and my family. I have spent 45 years with these desperados.
I always (Almost always) agree with you..But we cannot take the chance that the government will EVER ienforce there new immigration laws and its just an escape with status quo with there ability to Vote...

In all do respects Your Ideas are great, reasonable and in good will. But the US government is to PC to ever inforce it...Trust me "No Amnesty"

I don't support amnesty at all. And VA has a huge illegal problem. It'll never approach that of CA, but it's pretty significant for a non-border state. I think Krauthammer says what he does above because he knows the gov't. will never ever be able to do it.

Rick Lee,

You are articulate and I always appreciate your input.....I actually thought you wrote it...Sorry...Thinking this through, I really believe its the culture not the race. If it was 12 mil Asians I dont think it would scare the sh-t out of me like does with the current status. Asians would learn English and educate there kids. Work hard and contribute economically to our country and become Americans like 99.999% have in the past. These people think way different...( I dont want to hear the blanket race card crap) its the truth...Everyone is so afraid of the truth. If you took these individuals out of the news in the evenings there wouldnt be any....atleast in the south west...

Ill invite you to come to California and take a ride with me in my Truck not Porsche and take a good look around. I will show you my neighborhood where I grew up and show the pictures my parents took of the town in the 60-70's. You will be nausiated....Just like me...No excuse... just barbarianism...The place is trashed...

Where's Superman? Is he ill....Havnt seen any posts lat couple of days.

After the last couple weeks I think he is off getting carpal tunnel sugery...;)

ironic, isn't it?

The current bloated government bureacracy cannot keep track of expired visas. How will they track "guest workers"?

Illegals are comitting serious crimes that result in injury and death to thousands per year, yet their status is never questioned.

Hammer,

Your hilarious...

BTW does anyone know how to add an .wm file (2 meg)
to a reply posting? its actually not on the subject but hilarious...Youll like it...