Today's Rant - Red Light Cameras (Automated Revenue Generator$)
 

Yep, MY CAR (note that I'm not admitting to being the driver here) got snapped yesterday whilst making a left turn started ON A YELLOW (and yes, I'm 100% positive of this). I haven't gotten a "congratulations, you're invited to pay the state another $376" notice yet, but I suspect it'll be showing up in the next few days. So I need advice, guidance and (if anyone here can offer it) legal counsel.

I'm sure the usual rants/gripings/furious anger/impassioned discussion about how these things are illegal, do nothing to enhance safety, etc. will come up in this thread, that's not my primary point in posting this; mostly I'm looking for good advice to arm myself with, because I'm most certainly going to fight this with every fiber of my being.

I'm mad as hell about it and if I DO get cited, I'm looking at jacked-up insurance premiums, which I actually find even more offensive than the red light cameras (I did a traffic school about 6 months ago, so I'm not eligible to simply dismiss the points that way, unfortunately, so a rough-and-tumble gritty fight is in order). I'm more than ready (and willing) to raise holy hell about this and refuse to lie down. I'm not going to be like so many others that simply say "it's not worth it", bend over, grab their ankles and take their state-mandated dickings. Not this guy.

That said, I'm looking for online resources, lawyers (if anyone here is a lawyer, please PM me), etc.

I've already downloaded the statute from DMV website and a few other key items in preparation for battle. Here's what I've found thus far (I especially like the Ticket Assassin web site - seems to have very good advice, might be a good resource for others in similar boats):

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_5.htm
http://www.redlightcameraticket.com/long-beach-red-cameras.html
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/01/116.asp
http://ticketassassin.com/autoenf_toc.html



I find it particularly irritating that Long Beach is listed as the second-worst offending municipality in terms of percentage of red-light camera tickets issued within ONE SECOND of a light change (84%, third source above). The reasonable inferences that can be made on that statistic alone speak volumes about the priorities at work here. . .

The intersection in question was Bellflower & Willow (first one listed on the second site above). It'd be nice if a reviewer looked at the pictures and determined that I entered the light on a yellow and just round-filed it, but the more I dig, the more obvious it becomes to me that this really IS about revenue and I suspect any sort of "due diligence" review is a sham/token gesture at best.



It's go time. Impart to me your battle wisdom, oh ye Pelicans!

Go back and make a video of the stoplight at different times of the day. If the yellow timing is short of basic minimums, especially during rush hour, this may be a public hazard which is directly responsible for accidents and has given you severe emotional distress that requires compensation.
Best 'o luck with the brick wall.

We have more cameras than you have burger bars - get used to the idea - they are here to stay - and speed cameras and average speed cameras and cameras in cop cars and cameras in supermarkets and malls.
This is only going to get worse world wide. France used to be relatively camera free but not anymore.
A recent survey by our camera loving councils revealed that most people slowed down near the camera to less than the limit - then speeded up to more than the limit immediately afterwards (proving that they are totally useless) - so their response is to put another camera down the road so they can catch the people as they speed up again.

you're gonna waste all this time just to save a couple hundred dollars? just let it go.

It's more than a couple hundred bucks. It's $376 for the citation (if I'm cited) and about $1,500 in increased insurance premiums. That's well worth fighting for.

Cameras were here in VA and then got abolished because they increased accidents and it was proven that counties shortended yellow light times to increase revenue. So no, they're not necessarily here to stay.

$376 is about 5x more than any such ticket here used to run for that stuff. I'd fight this to the death. Don't let them get away with it. In the meantime, buy some Photoblocker and spray it on all your license plates.

If the pictures show you entered during the yellow, which you say you are 100% positive of, you have nothing to worry about. Was there someone behind you? Perhaps that’s who got snapped.

If you actually entered during the yellow, and you are the one the camera was shooting, I suspect there is a high likelihood that someone will round file it, as you suggest. If not, and you get a picture in the mail showing you entered during the yellow, you can file a “trial by declaration” or something to that effect. You put your arguments in writing, along with the picture, and mail it in. If the picture shows you entered during the yellow, you will win, and the case will be dismissed. Again, nothing to worry about.

I know people gripe about red light cameras, and I tend to agree. My thoughts are where do we draw the line of what the government can snap a picture of? On the other hand, red light runners are the number one cause of accidents… By and large, traffic laws are for our safety (yes, sometimes they go overboard). When I think about personal safety, the number one place I am likely to get injured is on the road. I am all for traffic laws that will increase this safety, even if it might mean revenue generation for the municipality.

I don’t understand the gripe about one second. It makes absolute sense that most red light violatios occur very shortly after the light turns red. You don’t see people running a red light 30 seconds after it turns, do you? Or even 10 seconds? Long Beach is a bit higher than average (84 versus 77), but perhaps that just means more people in Long Beach are in a hurry?

The car actually has smoked license plate covers (for looks, not to run red lights). They might actually work to my detriment if a cop looks at the pictures and thinks "here's a person that is deliberately trying to break the law" versus someone with no such covers. They look great on the car though, so until some cop pulls me over and tells me to take 'em off, they're staying.

Unfortunately my car was the last one in the queue for the left turn. Positive it was my car that got snapped. The car ahead was dragging its arse a bit so the driver of my car had to gun it a bit to get through and avoid sitting at that light for another 5 minutes, but definitely entered the intersection on the yellow.

The photoblocker stuff doesn't do schit. Mythbusters proved it, unless you know something I don't. . .

A static photo showing a car in the middle of an intersection with a red light displayed doesn't tell the whole story. The light could have been green, yellow OR red when the vehicle entered the intersection. According to what I'm reading on TicketAssassin, the report that comes up indicates the amount of time that elapsed between the red light and the picture. Then (supposedly) someone has to apply a little judgement/logic to determine if it's likely the vehicle entered on a yellow or red.

If this were about fairness/safety, they'd simply use video. Then it'd be clear as day who was entering the intersection on a yellow (legal) and who was entering it on a red (illegal). Draw your own conclusions about why these municipalities don't use video, but instead play this B.S. game with static imagery (and don't tell me it's system cost - that's a pittance).

Re: Today's Rant - Red Light Cameras (Automated Revenue Generator$)
 

Here's your advice.

You haven't received any ticket. You may never receive a ticket. Or you may get struck by lightening or hit by a truck before you get it, in which case it won't matter.

Don't worry about it, there's nothing to do at this time.

Let's see. . .

(1) Be proactive, realize that this city/state cares about one thing and one thing only - MONEY. Expect the citation to show up and don't be caught off-guard by it. Be ready to take the bull by the horns and kick some ass.

(2) Sit around doing nothing and be a reactive lump. Trust in the behind-closed-doors "due process" of a FOR-PROFIT third-party contractor (who only gets paid for "guilty" findings, by the way) to objectively review my situation.

I get what you're saying, but I'm more inclined to go with #1 tankuvewwymuch. Long Beach California pass up a chance to stick their cock up the ass of a taxpayer to get a free $400?!?! Are you schitting me? What color is the sky on your planet? You SERIOUSLY think they'd miss that opportunity? Man, I admire your idealism and Polyanna-ish view of the world. I guess I'm just a bit more cynical (or perhaps realistic) here.

I'll wager you $100 I get a citation out of this (win-win for me, it's cheaper than the ticket, right?) I know a thing or two about how this city works. They absolutely, positively will not pass up an opportunity to f*ck people over if it means more $$$ in the coffers. All else is secondary. Welcome to Kalifornia.

Revenue generators. Period.
They do nothing for safety. They cause more rear end collisions than anything else.

you won't be caught off guard by the ticket. you'll have plenty of time to respond.

but if you want to get worked up before you even get the ticket, no prob.

If the fighting doesn't work, then ask for Deferred adjudication/deferred disposition. It's even better than taking Defensive Driving. You do pay, usually almost as much as the ticket, but then as long as you don't get CONVICTED on a ticket in the next 3-6 months (time set by court) the ticket goes away as if it had never been there. They get their money and your insurance is safe.

Now THAT is some great advice, if it's a real option. Thanks - I'll look into it.

Is this true? I’ve seen a couple of red light camera pictures (not me) and they both clearly showed the car before it entered the intersection AND a red light. There is a sequence of photos. The first shows the car before entering the intersection and the red light. The next couple of photos show the car in the intersection and the red light. There were a couple of close ups of the driver and the license plate.

There is an example on this page: http://tinyurl.com/2epnaz

In the left photo, the sedan on the left is clearly behind the line and the light is clearly red. In the photo on the right, it is clearly in the intersection.

There is another example here: http://tinyurl.com/2flt6j

The folks who enter the intersection after the light has turned red should get nailed. That's dangerous stuff. But when there's not a left turn arrow and you have to get into the middle of the intersection and wait until it's clear, sometimes you can get caught there when the light turns red. It's happened to me, especially when oncoming cars turn without signaling, so I didn't know I could go until it was too late.

And as a motorcyclist, I do not do panic stops for yellow lights, especially when there are cars behind me or the road is at all damp. I had to do this yesterday and the light was yellow when I crossed into the intersection. But it had been yellow for a while before then and I knew it would be turning red shortly after I entered. But I swear, every single car I saw yesterday had a cell-phone chatting driver and I was not about to risk getting hit the idiot behind me by doing a hard stop before the intersection.

I wholeheartedly agree. Nobody's defending someone flagrantly blowing a red light or using a "two second rule" to justify going through a red. I'm just saying (as in my case) that there are certainly extenuating circumstances that a simple photo (or even a sequence of them) can never capture. A trained police officer watching the situation can (and hopefully does) exercise some discretion and factor in the circumstances. A "process" like this is designed to deliberately and systematically exclude this. That's a BIG problem, in my book and all the more reason I feel obligated to fight this tooth-and-nail.

Hell, I'd even pay $3,000 in legal fees (or more) against a $2,000 cost to "just take it" because I don't agree with the premise of this. Stupid? Hardly. I consider it an investment in defending the few civil liberties we have left in this country.

When due process starts getting put up for bid and outsourced and relegated to "closed door" sessions, we've got a problem.

I concerned that with the proliferation of these stoplight cameras can speeding cameras be far behind? I'm a technician for heavens sake electronic devices go out of adjustment... THAT'S HOW I MAKE A LIVING... time, temperature, dirt, vibration will affect any circuit (how many time have you gone by one of those "your speed is" electronic signs and it was malfunctioning?). If we let this go thousands of us will be paying fines for infractions that never occurred.:mad:

"There here to stay... get used to it..." so when they want to put a camera in you living room you'll be okay with that?

This ***** pisses me off. Just this morning I approached an intersection with a red light camera, and the light turned yellow. I was probably going around 45mph. Do you do the SAFE thing, and cross? Or smash the brakes in your sports car, stop, and hope to god the guy in the 74 Eldorado behind you can stop in time. Well I stopped, because I didn't want the ****** ticket. Scared the snot out of me.

Here in Seattle, a red-light ticket is $101, and I've heard that it's basically the same as a parking violation, i.e. that it doesn't go on one's driving record. So no jump in the insurance premium?

:confused:

But they scare the carp out of me.

How do you tell when you get snapped?

Flash!

Usually there's a huge flash that goes off, even in the daytime.

When I lived in Cal, I did a u-turn in a signaled intersection, the light seemed yellow to me when I began entering, but the cameras definately went off.

I never got a ticket mailed to me, though. This was in Bakersfield.

If you do get a ticket and lose the big battle, definately do traffic school. And do the Internet traffic school. Instead of sitting in a room all day on a Saturday, you can do an on-line "school" that you can complete in about a half an hour. Then it won't be on your insurance. You still have to pay the ticket, though, and the $50 or so for the "school."

I would but I used my traffic school option about 6 months ago (you can only do it once every 18 months unless you get special permission).

Ahh, bummer!

Good luck. Stick it to the Man!

Jeff, you might not have anything to worry about. Wait until you get the letter, first. AFter all, they still go after the DRIVER, correct? (When I lived in Portland, there was a new law in Beaverton that went after the OWNER of the car.) There's a distinction, there. It's easy to take a photo of the license plates, and then figure out who owns the car. It's harder to figure out if said owner was actually driving the car.

The way it's done in CA, I've read, is that the photo is taken of your vehicle committing supposed infraction. The plates are noted, and they go to the DMV to figure out who's the owner. Then, they look up said owner's computerized DMV photo. If that picture matches that of the driver of the car (caught on film), then a ticket is mailed out. If no match, no ticket.

So if you weren't driving, they may not send you the ticket. Except in Beaverton, where they'd send the ticket to the car owner, regardless of who was driving. Either the owner had to pay up, or rat out whoever was driving the car. I think that law got canned, eventually.

So, if you know it's gonna be close (to the red light), you could try wearing a hat, covering your face like you're coughing, turning your head, flipping down the sunvisor, etc. to try to foil that photo identification bit. Not that I condone running red lights (and I am not just saying this tongue-in-cheek). I'm VERY against that type of reckless driving. But if municipalities are going to shorten yellows to take advantage of these red light cameras, I certainly don't think we should make it any easier for them to fatten up.

$50 here in Raleigh & no points.

Some camera's have video also.

If you get a picture of yourself running a light, pay the ticket, if you never get that photo, you shall not be cited. No way you beat a redlight camera ticket. If they have a photo of you breaking the law, you are busted.

Maybe in Kalifornia, but that is 100% false elsewhere in the US.

What if you weren't running the red? Law says you're legal as long as you pass the limit line before the light turns red (though there's also a little caveat that you can't be accelerating to make that red light--however, that's hard to prove with current camera technology). Limit line is the "first" line in a crosswalk, BTW.

$234 in Albany Oregon. Dunno about points. Oregon bureaucrats must need more money than Washington burreaucrats...:rolleyes:

If you stop at red lights, you will never have to worry about these cameras.
If you are one of those who like to run red lights or push your luck at a yellow instead of stopping, you will get what you deserve ;)

in my opinion most people who get caught going through a late yellow are traveling well above the posted speed limit so they really can't safely stop in time. If they were driving the posted speed it would be no problem.
I exceed the posted limit sometimes, but there is a time and a place for it. Going through or approaching a traffic light is not one of those places. I appreciate the rest of you donating to the government, maybe it will take some of the burden off of me.

WRONG! If you enter an intersection when it's yellow, which is perfectly legal, and you get held up trying to make a left turn when an oncoming car fails to signal its own left turn and the light turns red, you get nailed. Sure, if you see it turn red and stop, you're fine. But if it turns red after you have entered the intersection but before you can exit it, you're screwed. And if you like writing checks to the state and having your insurance skyrocket, go right ahead. I will fight any such ticket all the way to the end.

Rick, you are mistaken.

They (Hazelwood MO) installed one of these out in front of where I work. It is $100 non moving violation. I have seen a couple of tickets mailed to fellow employees.

These tickets would be very hard to beat. It shows a photo 900 mSec after red with the car clearly behind the white line (And the red light in the picture) along with the vehicle speed. There is another picture at 2 seconds after red with the vehicle in the intersection along with the vehicle speed.

The yellow does seem shorter now and there have been some rear end collisions.

Legislature in Texas is about to ban red light cameras.

A friend was driving our car on Denny crossing Westlake and got nailed. She told me that evening that she thought she got caught, and sure enough within 2 weeks, I got a notice that showed a sequence of pictures, the first showing that it was red prior to entering the interection, and another picture showing that the car was past the intersection while the light was still red.

With the sequence of pics, it was pretty obvious she ran the red light. She paid the fine, and the ticket did say it was not considered a moving violation, so our rates have stayed the same.

In the pictures, the reflection of the license plate really shows up. I bet those license plate covers would keep the cameras from getting your plate number.