It is good to know that the republicans were attempting to keep those pushing a union agenda at bay. ;)

I'm glad to see you understand this much. Yes, unions oppose the hurting and killing of children in the work place. (wink)

Yeah, child labor is just a huge problem nowadays. ;)
We need some laws on the books to protect them...think of the children!:rolleyes:

Bravo. Correct. In spite of substantial and well organized political support, the fight by commerce and industry to retain the exploitation of children has been lost.

I live in Southern California so I admit to leading a shelterd life, can you point out where, in the last twenty or so years, has this exploitation of children been taking place?

You probably couldn't see the impish grin on my face as I posted that. Tim will probably recognize it. Let's just say that, very possibly, the child labor problem was largely cleared up before the last twenty years began.

Here's where the serious part of the post starts: But not so fast, actually. Child labor is not exterminated here, by any means. The Yakima area here in Washington State is very agricultural. Very. All sorts of crops. Lots of brown faces in those fields. When a state vehicle stops on the road and people get out, children RUN. Children of any age you can name. The 1 year-olds are being held by their working mothers. The four year olds are running.

A few incoherent thoughts, for a completely incoherent post.

1) Gandhi was a racist, albeit a peaceful one.

2) Bush is nobody's first choice, but he is the US Commander and chief, the President of the USA. If you are a US citizen, he is your President. Speak your mind, but also respect the office and those who hold it. If you don't like it here, nobody is keeping you from leaving.

3) Both alternatives to Bush were infinitely worse. "Lock Box"

4) It's time to repeal the minimum wage of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. The minimum wage act denies market forces from working by artificially interfering with wages. It has rarely worked and it certainly isn't working now.

Flame away!http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/vuur.gif

What's the term "Lock Box" mean? :confused:

and silver spoon republicans...

Al Gore reference

So, the child labor laws are being broken by illegal aliens, is that the fact you are pointing out?

Apparently some would have us fight Chinese-style labor practices with... well, Chinese-style labor practices. Brilliant.

Heres to a 14 hour day and no rights! Power to the... er, market?

BTW: IMHO some of you are completely mad.

the problem is we'll still lose. They've got numbers...

Yeah, I saw that remark about repealing minimum wage so that market forces are not frustrated. I'm not going to respond to it.

As in "Three Lock Box"...
http://www.hardrockhaven.net/hrhinde...20girls050.jpg

I believe it was the 3.7. But not sure - the Pope served in the Hitler Jugend with an anti-aircraft auxiliary in the occupation forces in Hungary. Google, thus far has not revealed the size of his firearm.

More importantly though, I wonder how many allied airmen he blew out of the sky and whether the fact that the man pulling the trigger would some day become God / Jesus' representative on earth would have been of any comfort to them?

Yup...

I see some here yearning for a return to the nineteenth century labor environment. I suggest re-reading some of the novels of the times....Dickens is an excellent start. Then go for the bios of Carnege and the rest of the leaders of industry of the time.

Those who ignore the lessons of history may wll become victims of a repeat of same.

So you weren't fighting the republicans about that issue because it is no longer an issue:confused: ;)

My grandfather was a tomato farmer and migrants lived in little shacks down by the barn every summer. They all worked hard including the kids. So what, they were happy and they made good money compared to what they had back home. My brother and my cousins and I all did it one summer too when the effing Flock union came in and forced my grandpa's loyal workers out of the fields. My grandfather stood out by the road for a few days with a shotgun to keep the flockers at bay for awhile, but eventually, his workers feared for their safety and left town.

PS I HATE unions, always have always will. The fact that the republicans busted your chops over union matters brings a huge grin to my face. :) :) :)

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Malcolm X?

You know, if age has given me anything its given me the gifit of hindsight, and in hindsight, the only thing I regret about my formative years is that I didn't get a chance to work for Standard Oil or the United Fruit Company. Man, to be a participant and witness to market forces in action, what an opporitunity that would be.

The days when a Blue Collar worker can be Middle Class are OVER. It was an aberation to begin with, due to circumstances after WW2. Starting in the Mid 1960s the American worker has been on the decline.

U boyz better get used to doing with less. The party is winding down and the hangover in interest payments on the debt are going to hobble what futher generations will be able to do. So Thank U to the Greatest Generation for setting up a flawed system and Thanks to the Baby Boomers for their wanton me, me, me excesses.

So all your talk about Unions, Political Parties that do this or that and Child Labor laws is just a bunch of BS. Idle rhetoric to wile away the time.

The UNited States is going to become increasingly the HAVES and the HAVE NOTS. The ones who develope skills that are needed in todays Business environment are going to do OK. The ones who wana watch TV are gona be left behind relagated to chronic underemployment.

If this nation continues in trying to leave no child behind or social class it will eventually drag everyone down. This should make Liberals happy, Darwinism is alive and well in the 21st Century. It truly will go back to the survival of the fittest.

In keeping with his tradition Tabs includes some useless and misguided BS here but the bones of his message are spot-on. America is going to get its ass kicked and its lunch eaten by other countries. It will not be pretty. Debt will hurt us. Laziness. Etc.

I'm in the construction industry, and I feel good about every decent young person I direct into that industry. They are good jobs. They require a hard day's work. And they cannot be outsourced.

Mexicans?

If it was a 3.7 it wouldnt be any bombers - maybe some low flying fighters. Since it was in Hungary they would have been up against the Russans. Besides - It was the Hitler Youth - I dont know how much you can fault a 14-17yo for being brainwashed BUT we are talking about the Pope.

I'm in the construction industry, and I feel good about every decent young person I direct into that industry. They are good jobs. They require a hard day's work. And they cannot be outsourced.

Do their kids run when the INS shows up?

Thats a low blow BeyGon, Union labor is a Godsend for many many people in this country. Its the only reason my family (IBEW) has been able to survive. Sure, its cheaper to hire Scabs, but 9 times out of 10 the job will be ruined. Its not a perfect system, but it works.

Why couldn't your family survive if they had worked a non-union job? The construction trade is a bit different, but on the automotive side, I would hire a non-union worker over a union worker every time if I wanted a hard working skilled craftsman.

I think you may want to rethink your definition of “survive”. Very few people in this country have to worry about actually “surviving”. If you want to try survival, drive your Porsche thru Mogadishu. ;)

You guys obviously know my family history better than I do, but if my memory serves me correctly Food Stamps were just enough to feed us while Mom was in her apprenticeship. Occasionally the Salvation Army would bring food by as well. In rural Indiana work is scarce, jobs are few, and people are poor with a capital P.

Poor choices on her part? Maybe, but how do you plan for a failed marriage with 2 kids to support? Life happens, thank God there is somewhere to go for folks that are willing to do the work.

I don't understand the "low blow" part, it was a reply to Superman about who he hires and his early post of all the Mexicans running in the fields.
Here in SoCal most of the construction work is done by Mexicans.
Illegal or?
I believe unions had a purpose, just not sure if they still do.

I guess I still don't understand. The apprenticeship (union I assume) paid too little to eat on? How does this show that the union saved your family?

Not busting your balls (yet ;) :D ) over this, I just am trying to understand why you think the union saved your family (my guess is that it paid more than what a non union job would pay for equivalent skills).

I respect your view Tim, and I don't expect we will see eye-to-eye on some stuff but I strongly believe that your views on unions would become less harsh if you worked in my office for a bit. It is really common for the local union folks here to help, however they can, workers regardless of their union affiliation or lack thereof. They really believe, and I really believe, that contractors and unions and contract "owners" can work together toward their mutual benefit. Sure they can, of course, and in many parts of the country there is not a helpful atmosphere, but here in Seattle there generally is a good labor community. On Wednesday afternoon of this week, I facilitated a meeting between the local Iron Worker representative and a contractor who is building baggage conveyor systems in the bowels of our airport terminal. Granted, these meetings are usually "grievance" meetings where somebody's got some heartburn over somebody else's actions but in this particular meeting the Iron Worker union guy came specifically to outline three separate ways in which he could help the contractor be more successful. No vested interest except to point out missed opportunities to the contractor. The contractor was quite appreciative.

Sure, sometimes unions can be fairly callous toward employers' goals. But that's not the way it should be, and not the way it always is. Sometimes......the system works.

One more thing. Two weeks from today I will play in a charity golf tournament that Labor organizes. I help. Each year we give nearly $100K to childrens' charities. Medical stuff. We're struggling to get employers to participate. Very few do. Probably 5 out of 6 participants are union representatives, and the rest are typically third-party benefit trust administrators that handle the pension and medical insurance money for the members.

That's something many of you are probably confused about. Pension and medical insurance money is not paid to the unions. It is paid to an independent third-party trust administrator set up by both Labor and Management.

Well, theres was no work at all, or there was $11/hr for 4 years as an IBEW apprenctice. Thats a long haul for folks with a family to support. Ofcourse, once Ma turned Journeyman things got better, but the 2hr commutes and winter job sites never changed. Not to mention the constant coming and going of health insurance, months of waiting on the books for jobs to come around, and the general danger of working on a jobsite.

Union work is not easy, but it allowed honest folks like my family to succeed in buying a house, sending the kids through college, and keeping us all safe and healthy. It took 4 years of apprenticeship to get there but, like I said earlier, for those willing to do the work its a life-saver.

Don't take this the wrong way, but from what you described, my take on it is that your mom did what she had to do to take care of your family (I applaud her for her sense of responsibility). It could have been any job, union or not that she would have had to climb the ladder to success with. I have friends who belong to unions and I do not fault them for working their jobs to make a living, but overall, I feel unions are not in this countries best interests in these modern times.