When everyone is responsible, no one is accountable

[legion]

Teams or other large groups of people are great for deflecting blame. When everyone is responsible, no one is accountable. What happens when "society" is responsible for you? What happens when you are responsible for you? Guess who has more of an interest in your success?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070529/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_economy

MANCHESTER, N.H. - Presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton outlined a broad economic vision Tuesday, saying it's time to replace an "on your own" society with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity.

So everyone is responsible for everyone else? Great in theory, but in practice it means that no one is responsible for anyone, even themselves.

The Democratic senator said what the Bush administration touts as an "ownership society" really is an "on your own" society that has widened the gap between rich and poor. "I prefer a 'we're all in it together'

Ahhh...the old party line of the "widening gap between rich and poor". A recent study (do a search, I posted a thread) has correlated this gap with age. Meaning younger people have less money and older people have more. This is a desirable thing, IMO. Closing the "gap" could have disastrous effects--think of all the people without retirement savings...or the inflation caused by an affluent younger generation.

[the]

What she is promoting is a system where one man has a claim or right to the work of another man. And where one man has a duty to work or produce for another man.

The underlying "principles" behind that is, ironically, a very fundamental "Christian right" idea. It comes straight out of the minds of Christian thinkers like C.S. Lewis. And the Bible.

Of course, while that may get one into the divine afterlife, as political principle it is completely bankrupt and immoral. But it is the path our country is, unfortunately, going down, and will eventually lead to the downfall of our country as the prime world economic superpower.

[azasadny]

Hillary needs to read "Atlas Shrugged"...

[djmcmath]

The underlying principles work great in a society where everyone really can "have all things in common," like, say, a commune. Unfortunately, the communists proved that it doesn't work on a large scale. In fact, it fails collossally on a large scale. I find it funny* that Hillary's using the same kind of language, and getting away with it, in our famously capitalist society.

Dan



*Not so much "ha ha" funny as funny like milk that's been left out too long.

[Dennis Kalma]

When I was a rookie at Shell, there was a discussion in the hallways about the idea of "syndicated risk".....the idea that a team of peers always leaves the risk sitting in a big stinking pile on the table and no one takes care of it. That is why self managed teams still need a leader and that is what, in theory, executives are paid more for....to accept and manage the risks.

This "all in common stuff" is a pile of crap....

Dennis

[HardDrive]

I'm as liberal as they come, but I wouldn't vote of that b!cth in a million years.

[GO DAWG GO]

azasadny-

Hillery would dispise Ayn Rand....and the "Fountain head". Ayn is an intellectual giant. Hillery is a half wit pinko. Two very different people.. Besides she doesnt have time because she is busy reading Marx's "Das Capital" over and over. She believes "everyone should equally be poor" Huge government and the totallitarian collective tax base... She needs to be exposed as the Marxist that she is...

[Superman]

Right. It's better to have a society where each individual is responsible for themselves only, and encouraged to engage in behavior that is as greedy as possible.......so that everyone benefits. Cut a few corners, misrepresent a few things and as long as you stay out of jail and you make a bunch of money, you are a Model American and we are grateful for your contribution to money-making which, after all, is what America is all about.

[legion]

Originally posted by Superman
Right. It's better to have a society where each individual is responsible for themselves only, and encouraged to engage in behavior that is as greedy as possible.......so that everyone benefits.

You were right up until this point.

Originally posted by Superman
Cut a few corners, misrepresent a few things and as long as you stay out of jail and you make a bunch of money, you are a Model American and we are grateful for your contribution to money-making which, after all, is what America is all about.

Is it in your own best interest to "[c]ut a few corners, misrepresent a few things and as long as you stay out of jail and you make a bunch of money"? These may work short-term, but long-term you are driving away your customer base, friends, whatever and building a reputation that keeps other prospects away. I would argue that these things are not in one's own best interest...but some people fail to see that.

[the]

The best society would be one where everyone behaves rationally.

Behaving criminally is not behaving rationally.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Superman
Right. It's better to have a society where each individual is responsible for themselves only, and encouraged to engage in behavior that is as greedy as possible.......so that everyone benefits. Cut a few corners, misrepresent a few things and as long as you stay out of jail and you make a bunch of money, you are a Model American and we are grateful for your contribution to money-making which, after all, is what America is all about.

Supe, it's the movers and shakers of the world that make philanthropy possible. How much charitable work does your average unemployed person do? Big earners pay big taxes and make big donations to charity.

If the roads are paved and and the poor are fed, thank a rich guy.

[the]

Originally posted by legion

Is it in your own best interest to "[c]ut a few corners, misrepresent a few things and as long as you stay out of jail and you make a bunch of money"? These may work short-term, but long-term you are driving away your customer base, friends, whatever and building a reputation that keeps other prospects away. I would argue that these things are not in one's own best interest...but some people fail to see that.

It is best if people act in their own RATIONAL interest.

The above is irrational behavior. Lying to make money and stay out of jail is just as immoral and irrational as taking - under threat of force - the fruits of one man's work and labor and giving it to another.

[ronin]

Originally posted by the
...taking - under threat of force - the fruits of one man's work and labor and giving it to another.

our tax system in a nutshell

[Superman]

I know, Moses. I know. I like the idea of people making money. I like the idea of American being the Land of Opportunity. I know the heat of our economic furnace is what also warms the less fortunate. In the form of taxes and also in the form of private (and corporate) giving. What I can't get comfortable with is our culture of winning at all cost. We have a culture of rule-breaking and rule-bending and opportunism. Not just finding and seizing opportunities. It goes way beyond that.

Chris, I know I've criticized you mercilessly and you take it pretty well. At this time, I'm going to suggest you read some books about the founders of this country's largest corporate success stories. Ray Krok, founder of Wendys, looks like a sweet teddy-bear fellow on TV, right? Ummmm.... How 'bout Henry Ford? How 'bout Wal-Mart's current and past business practices? Heck, how 'bout Microsoft? Those businesses did not become the lartest of their kind by being nice, or socially responsible.

Moses and Chris and whoever: Just quickly, as many of you know, I worked at a state agency that enforces labor law. Minimum wage, overtime, etc. Virtually the worst thing I have ever seen happen to a business in the twelve years I was there.....is that the business had to pay a portion of the wages they deliberately failed to pay in the first place. With just a few very notable exceptions, which took many years and hundreds of hours of legal action, employers caught red-handed cheating poor families out of hard-earned money.........IS A ****ING GENTLEMAN'S GAME!!!!!!!!!!! Cheating these poor people is funny, I am told. A bonus. If you can make money and also get away with breaking labor law at the same time........bonus points. The law has no teeth. Apparently, the last thing we want to do is create and actual, fearful barrier to prevent employers from stealing money from the working poor.

A woman was fired because she refused to sleep with the boss. Nice young lady, I am told. Two well-behaved little boys. She was a single mother. When the money ran out, she came to see one of our investigators. The employer/letcher had routinely cheated her out of overtime money. Weekly. She worked 50-55 hours per week and he never, ever paid her an overtime rate. Minimum wage. Our investigator got her the money owed. He also heard that this fellow's romantic and financial game was the same for all his employees. He got away with those. He only paid that one woman's back wages, and there were no fines. Of course. Why are the fines not practically applicable? Why are there just 16 investigators statewide to safguard the earnings of nearly three million workers? Because cheating is encouraged, frankly.

[Superman]

Originally posted by the
It is best if people act in their own RATIONAL interest.

The above is irrational behavior. Lying to make money and stay out of jail is just as immoral and irrational as taking - under threat of force - the fruits of one man's work and labor and giving it to another.

Some of you guys are unaware of how empires are built. How heroes are made in this country.

[GO DAWG GO]

Man of steel,

"How hero's are made in this country" These pathetic crooks that try to cheet the little guy are not the embodied, crafty, wise, proteges that you speak of. I would not confuse the heros of this country with the records of less than astute larcenists your calling American Capitalists. Henry Ford did nothing that every other businessman is doing in China. Exploiting an unskilled work force. Where is the exception? should there be. He wasnt Stalin who said build my cars or else. At least he used American Labor. That empire he built at the time resembles what Bill Gates has done in contemperary times..The result..They made our lives better. Do You agree...Or do I have to get out the Kryptonite...

Bob

[Rearden]

Originally posted by azasadny
Hillary needs to read "Atlas Shrugged"...

+1
Exactly.

[BGCarrera32]

Originally posted by Superman
Some of you guys are unaware of how empires are built. How heroes are made in this country.

LOL...like you know; you sit on the internet all day hammering home this drivel.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Hillary spouting Marxism??


In other news... WATER IS WET!!

[legion]

Supe, some comments:

Ray Krok bought McDonald's from the McDonald brothers and proceeded to invent the franchise. Dave Thomas founded Wendy's.

Supe, I understand your perspective, but it seems that you deal with the "cheaters" day in and day out, and have come to believe that all companies are like that. I happen to have first-hand knowledge of some companies that try to do the right thing day in and day out, but get crucified in the press by greedy trial lawyers looking for their (unearned) cut. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to share my knowledge because extensive research staffs these lawyers employ.