That has to suck bigtime, glad you're ok, sorry for the loss. May the insurance Gods smile on you today.

Good Luck, Don

I'm still shocked by this. Jeff, did you call 911 and get put on hold? In LB, using a cell, we call the local Emergency Response number and get right through instantly. For the record, that number is 562 4356711 (police) or 562 5702500 (fire)

I got $6,500 for my 'S' two years ago.

Who is your insurer?

Good to know - thanks. Yes I got put on hold. As I was holding a woman in another vehicle pulled up to me and said she'd already called it in, which was good. Hats off to the PD & FD. They were really quick - under 5 minutes I'd say from the time I bailed out to when they got on scene (PD got there first, fire truck about a minute later). Unfortunately PD couldn't do much more than I could (stand there and watch it burn) but they did get a lane block set up to prevent people coming out of the tunnel from slamming into the back of it.

Just got off the phone w/ insurance. So far so good. Their guy is going to look at it probably tomorrow. I expect it to be totalled on the spot, but who knows. Obviously if they (by some miracle) say they can fix it, I'll gladly let them. If they do total it out (more likely) I'll have to find out then how it all works, what the procedure is for getting paid, potentially buying back, etc.

Mercury Insurance. I think the $4500-ish # is on the policy, so I don't know if that's what they go with. Just for grins I pulled up NADA this morning and that quotes $7500-$10000 retail value (admittedly that'll be a bit higher than dealer or wholesale value) but still. I'm hopeful but figure after getting lowballed, taking out whatever $$$ for buying the shell back, etc. I wonder how much I'll actually get out of this. I figure $3k to be safe. Anything more than that and I'll consider it gravy.

There is no way that your car will not be totalled.

Any recent reciepts for work (even if you did the work and the parts are all you paid for) will be a good negotiating tool. Don't take their first offer. There have been many threads written on this and I went thru it once. Suffice to say, you don't have to read them all, just know that the person on the other end of the phone is getting paid to pay you less. They can be rather hard nosed, too. Let them. Time is on your side and you can take the settlement to court if you want to. I'd say be the time you get a couple of counter offers, you're done.

Then, you have to decide on the second aspect and that is the buy back. Don't admit to any interest in buying back the salvage until you get a final offer for settlement. Otherwise, they will offset the settlement with a high buy out.

It's a poker game, to be sure. You'll have to bluff for part of the hand until you get some cards.

Oh, and don't make any statements here that might contain any information about the condition of the car unless they are positive and true. You never know who reads what. The first thing the cops did in the not-so-famous Halloween beatings here in LB was to go to MySpace where they found out all they needed to know before the defendants' attorneys pulled the pages down.

Yeah, fire is a nasty business. New wiring harness. Lots of external engine parts and sheet metal. The thing I'd be worried about is what temperature the critical part of the chassis attained. I'm not a metallurgist, but I don't like the prospects of making an overheated car into a race car. There may be nothing to this, but I'm leery.

None of the steel details or structural parts in the frame or front end are tempered. So, I wouldn't worry about them being annealed. The car is unibody correct. I think sheet metal distortion from linear expansion would be the only issue. The structure as a whole is probably serviceable. Many external engine components such as power steering pumps smog pumps and wiring are toast.

If I were into 951/944 I would take the insurance money and consider making it a race car..It will always have a Salvaged title from now on...Zero resale value...

Bob

Damn man, sorry to hear about the car, but glad you made it out ok!
You can always get another, he who dies with the most toys still dies!!

Sorry to see this, Jeff.

Check comps on collectorcartrader, autotrader, completed auctions on ebay, cars.com and others. Recent photos would be good too. Have a value in mind before they give you a number.

I defer to your ME wisdom, but it's the distortion to which I refer. As I said, it may be a non issue. Now, what about the corrosive effects of whatever they used to extinguish the fire and the fact that any rust preventatives went up in smoke (literally). I have always found the burned sheet metal was nasty stuff to work with.

Not that I'm picking nits, here. Shoot, the shock of such a travesty must still be sinking in. Too early to worry about such things as I have brought up. I was simply agreeing that the car was more or less a write-off from more than one perspective.

And for that, I'm truly sorry.

GT Racing sells fiberglass and carbon fiber hoods and fenders...

Here are a few questions about this whole negotiation business with the adjuster(s):

1. How can I use receipts for parts on the car as justification for getting a better "buy out" price if I'm going to potentially buy it back anyway? For example - let's say they offer me $4,500 but I show them the receipts for $1,500 worth of seats and $200 for a turbocharger water pump. Why would (should) they now offer me $6,200 knowing that I might buy the car back, get those components back in the process, and then part them out making even more money back - would they allow this? Seems to me insurance is all about preventing me from getting anything if possible. Why would they leave such a loophole and allow me to get paid twice using components/receipts as a justification?

2. Should I claim aftermarket parts? What if I say "I think you should offer me $1,000 more because that's how much I paid for my LinkMAP kit that was on the car when it got toasted". Could they not then turn around and say, "aftermarket part, possibly responsible for the fire, not covered - you get zero"?

3. What recourse do I really have? What do I really gain by stonewalling them? Even if I put up a poker face like I don't give a crap about the money and say "I'm not accepting your settlement"? Won't they just say "fine then, keep the car" and walk away? In other words, what are they legally OBLIGATED to do? Offer? Counteroffer? A certain number of offers within so many % of each other? What?

Receipts for work done on the car help, but only to a limited extent. Rightly or wrongly, they won't be that impressed with the money you dumped in the car.

What they are interested in is the fair market value of the car. That is generally shown by (1) book value and (2) comparable sales. That's what gets their attention. If you can show 3 sales at $7500, they will likely give you $7500.

What recourse do you have? You can try to negotiate with them, then your recourse would be to get a lawyer to negotiate with them, then your recourse would be to sue them. Of course, over a $5K car, that is not likely worth it. You have nothing to gain by stonewalling them. They are legally obligated to do what your contract says they have to do. Likely it says if the car is totaled, they will pay you fair market value. The starting point for this is going to be some kind of book value. They will usually go up if you can show your car was in exceptional condition and cars in your condition have sold for $X on the market.

You should read carefully and fully understand your policy before you make contact with your insurance company.

Those with exceptional cars worth substantially more than normal market value should always consider an agreed value policy.

I'd just filled it up with premium gas that morning too - that's worth $60 right there!

Really? I got almost a thousand more out of the ins company when my truck was totaled while parked. I showed new brakes about a year old and a new tranny. This was a 33% increase to a total of 4K for an '89 1/2 ton.

Wow Jeff, sorry to see it, glad you are fine. Must have been quite a sight.

On getting full value, I can relay my experience with an 88 900 Turbo. It was hit in the rear and totaled. Even though the car had 245K on it, it was in top form, very fast, lots of go-fast parts, etc.

His insurance company wanted to give me $900 for it. I sent them copies of all my work done but that did very little. they wanted proof that the car was as valuable as I said: $4500. So I scoured Saabnet.com and listed 10 similar examples that ranged from $3500 to $5500 for the nearly exact same car, all enthusiast owned.

After that, I quickly got a phone call and subsequent check for $3800, which was nice because I paid $2200 for it 2 years earlier.

You've got to establish your car's value as compared to what else is on the market.

I lost my original 944 when I was rear ended in an accident, I feel your pain.

You might want to pull out that 944 market report from excellence. I cant seem to find it but I recall that the values they report are good (high) and are based on actual sales. I think if you can show recent work receipts it will help you show that the car was maintained and in excellent shape.

good luck

And yet another method is to say fine, get me a replacement at your settlement amount. In my case, there were no 1/2 tons around at all.

Excellent advice - now THAT is a great negotiating tactic. I'd like to see them find a 951 that was as good as what I lost for less than $6k. Probably more like $7k.

P-o-P, Sorry to see such a loss. Looks like it was a nice car. We're glad you're OK.

On a darker note, I must admit I'm slightly amused by this. I never...never thought anyone could beat out Rock in terms of luck....:eek:

Read your contract. You will see you have no basis for using that as a negotiating tactic. They have no contractual obligation to find and buy a replacement car for you. They don't roll that way, in today's vernacular. All you'll get out of them is a laugh.

Point is, if they can't find a replacement (whether or not it's a deliverable item), the principle is most certainly solid. If they can't present a replacement for the amount they're offering, their offer is obviously bogus and therein lies its strength. It's not so much about "find me a car", it's about "prove your number isn't pulled out of your posterior". I'll be able to back my numbers, I'm not so sure they'll be able to back theirs.

Sure, they back their number quite easily. They don't pull a number out of their posterior, they open a book and pull the number right out of that.

That's good enough for them, and in the absence of any evidence that YOU can present to the contrary, it will be good enough for the judge.

Glad you're ok. And don't worry. You'll be able to build the next car cheaper, faster, and better with everything you learned from this one.

Oh, I'll have plenty of evidence to the contrary - already do (been digging up stuff all evening). The blue book is a load of garbage and everyone in the Porsche world knows it. Those numbers don't mean schit.

FWIW NADA's book (if they want to get picky over published figures by "experts" which are largely just made up to sell new cars and make more money for wealthy bankers, IMO) quotes my car as $8k-$10.5k retail. WAY more than the $3k or so I figure they'll "offer" me.

Insurance adjusters are slightly below whale schit on the bottom of the ocean and slightly above realtors in my book. It'll be quite fun to hand one's ass to him/her if they try to insult me with a lowball offer.

Nobody's looking for "cashing in" here, I'm only looking for what's fair, factoring in the insane insurance rates I pay in this state. The bull$hit I expect (based on numerous other horror stories I've heard) is just that - a bull$hit game played by *********s. They figure 99% of people won't bother or will be too chickenschit to fight. Not me. I do my homework, I intend to go in prepared and I'll get what I consider fair. I won't take a lowball offer, even if it means getting nothing immediately. I don't care. Worst case I tow it home and disassemble here, keeping what I can use and parting out what I can't. I know what I can make doing that, and it's more than the lousy number I expect to get quoted initially. If they try to bluff/bull$hit me, I'll call it and walk. No skin off my ass.

Just trying to help you focus on the right things to get the most for your car. Not sure why you seem so resistant.

To summarize:

1. Focus on any published price guides. If you have published guides that say $8-10K, that's great. Not sure if the Anderson price guides in excellence will be helpful or harmful to you, but if they are good, use them.

2. Appraisals are good, too, if you can get them. PCA used to do them for free, and they were usually quite high.

3. As part of their investigation, if it gets far, they will eventually do a market price check. You should do the same. Try the ads in Panorama, they are generally dreamers with overpriced cars, which is good. These days, they may check eBay completed sales, I'm not sure. For more current model cars, they usually check the newpaper classifieds. Find high asking price ads and put them together. Then you have to convince them your car is similar condition to the high value cars, and much better than the low priced junk in the ads they found. That's where any receipts for recent major work can be helpful.

You are correct that they are going to continue to bluff and BS you into trying to take a low number. Absolutely. But if you can find good stuff as shown above, you have a chance of coming out ok. If you have price guides showing $10K, a PCA appraisal showing $10K, multiple ads showing asking prices of $12K (the insurance co. will, correctly, point out that selling price is usually less than asking), etc., they will have a hard time sticking with something like $3K.

You might do ok. But the sad reality is this: It's a cost/benefit analysis for them. As long as they have some low level guy or gal yanking your chain, there is only upside for them, no potential downside. It's only when a lawyer gets involved that your claim gets moved upstairs and gets any serious attention, because the element of potential downside (legal costs and a truly possible lawsuit) is introduced.

Good luck.

(P.S. Regardless of what happens, do yourself a favor and use this as an opportunity to finally get a 911).

pretty true. hopefully, if you can stand your ground and do the due diligence on market value, it won't have to come to legal threats. know any lawyers who need some pro bono time? anyway, i haven't said it yet, but i'm sorry to see what happened to your car, jeff. best of luck in making the most of this unfortunate loss of your car. :(

Are you sure? My insurance agent has told me specifically that at least in NC, that is EXACTLY what the law requires.

Very good post.

D@mn Jeff, sorry to hear this. Have you figured out what caused this yet? (I have an '87 951 that I am about to put back on the road soon)

I would bet you could find one with a blown motor for parts and you could fix yours, then part out the rest for a profit. (lots of work, but probably very doable)

KBB and such exist because many (many, many, many) people think that when they total their 5-year old Honda Accord, they are entitled to a brand new Honda Accord--and not another 5-year old Accord. You are truly looking for "replacement value" Jeff, and as such, you shouldn't have a tough time with this.

Like I said, when my 'S' was totalled, I was offered $6,500. Considering that I don't think I could have found anything myself to back up that high a price, I accepted. I was asked about aftermarket parts, stereo, and major overhauls as part of the valuation. The buy-back I was offered was $500. The car never left my driveway and I had my check the next day.

My experience with smaller insurers has been very different. I was rear-ended by classmate in high school. Strangely, his insurance lapsed the day before the accident, and was reinstated the day after. I never saw a dime for the damage to my car. My mother also used to work for one of those "minimum coverage" insurers. The very first thing they would do if you filed a claim was to attempt to cancel the policy.

Sorry about your car...

When my 1990 C2 Targa was totalled - I did not wait for them to come up with a price - I did some market research - found some comparable cars (PCA and Rennlist, one on Autotrader) on my own that were for sale and forwarded them to my adjuster.

When they came back with a settlement - it was 2000 more than what I paid for the car two years prior.

That being said - how much for the 951 fuchs?

Thanks for all the good advice and words of encouragement guys. I really appreciate it.

For starters, I think the first thing to do is to get the car (what's left of it) out of storage and drag it back to my place. I'll then try to force it into my garage and wait for the appraisal to be done there - on MY terms, not theirs.

As I've said before, I expect this to rapidly turn into another shining example of what professional rip-off artists insurance companies are and turn into a lengthy, protracted fight. I have a number in my head that I think (based on research and estimates of other vehicles' sale prices, etc.) represents the fair market value of the car before it got destroyed. If by some miracle they see fit to meet that, fine and dandy, but I fully expect they won't and this will turn into a months-long ordeal.

I'll keep you all posted. Cutting out of work early to go pick up the carcass and get it home.

I guess you miss the point. The object of having comprehensive insurance is to ensure that you are covered for a loss, we can all agree on that. There is no reason for anyone to believe that one has to upgrade in order to continue on with life. If you are happy with a 951 or a 1/2 ton PU, then that's what you can shoot for.

I, for one, did not get a laugh when I told the adjuster that I could not find any transportation for the amount being offered. Now, that was not my only negotiating tool, just one of everything I could muster. I have USAA, I don't know what you have, "the".

So, I did not claim that they had any obligation to buy me a replacement, I just pointed out that a replacement at a low figure was impossible. I don't know why you feel compelled to post some of the posts you do. I know who my next ignore list member should be. I should have shut you up a long time ago (on my screen, that is).

And so it shall be.

Now you are changing your story. Now you are saying you only told your adjuster you couldn't find a replacement for the amount being offered.

Your original post didn't say that, it said: "And yet another method is to say fine, get me a replacement at your settlement amount."

That's a suggestion to Jeff to tell his insurance company to go out and find and get a replacement car for him, which is absurd.

No I have to disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to request (or demand) that they justify the legitimacy of their settlement number by using comparable vehicles. After all, that's the best indicator of "fair market value". If you can find similar vehicles that have sold for $X, that's a helluva lot more convincing to me than some B.S., made-up, fabricated number in a book that's really just made up to keep people buying new cars every 3-5 years by creating this artificial concept of "depreciation". I use published "book value" in buying a car as a guideline, but I certainly don't get hung up on it. Comparable sales are far more convincing and I think any judge would have to agree with that.

I've found several 951s similar to mine with selling prices ranging from $7k to $10k. I think that'll be pretty convincing.

Absolutely. That's exactly what I've told you over and over again.

But you won't have to request or demand them to do it. They'll get comparables on their own, particularly if you provide them with some.

I think there's a good chance you will be fine. You aren't looking to make a killing on this or anything, just get fair market, and the numbers you are talking about seem to be in the ballpark. Just get as much helpful data (book values, comparable sales and ads, and/or appraisals) as possible, and present it as clearly and concisely as possible.