Here's a link to the FIA's detailed statement. It is very long, but very interesting and includes some snippets of emails between the drivers and mechanics concerning Ferrari setup. I also find it interesting that Hamilton responded with no info for the FIA. My guess is he's lying and is simply playing the company line, which I suppose could be considered very loyal. However, the FIA made it very clear to the drivers that if it was found out later that they had withheld any info, the penalties would be huge. For his sake, I hope he really knew nothing about any of this, but I find that hard to believe.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2728560,00.html

What would sink Hamilton is if Alonzo or anyone else had copies of emails from/to him about this. This is sure to come out and if/when it does he has a problem.

That said, Alonzo and de la Rosa are already sunk, and they deserve it. Also, no one seems to mention that Ferarri has been as well monitoring McLaren's radio communications FOR YEARS now and no one has said a thing. If its legal for one team then its legal for all one would think.

Cannot wait for qualifing tomorrow to hear the discussion. It was really between two people,

Anyone in that business signs non-disclosure agreements, that is certain.

But, regardless, the "it's not a crime" standard is just mis-guided.

By that standard, there's no problem with, and would be no penalty for, drugged-out Tour de France riders, steroid-pumped Russian gymnasts, home runs hit with illegal bats, pretty much any sort of cheating in sports at all. Because almost none of that is actually "criminal".

So you'd either have (1) unrestrained cheating, spying, drugging, etc in all sorts of sports, or (2) bringing every detail of sports under the heavy hand of the criminal justice system. Seems like a pretty bad idea.

This puts an interesting light on the whole situation.
I can see that the person giving the information away is guilty and that anyone caught using that information to their advantage is also guilty. But it seems as though only a few people within the McLaren team knew the information and even then there is doubt as to whether or not it was used. From McLaren's perspective I would think they would be right to fire anyone found to have been cheating, including drivers, and probably should. The same with Ferrari, if they catch the guy giving out the information then get rid of him. That side of things is something the teams should deal with.
As for the punishment, if the team as a whole didn't have any knowledge of what was going on, and it does appear that the whole thing may have been kept from Hamilton, then why should the whole team be punished. Particularly if none of the technical information had been used to the teams advantage in the design of their car. If it was set-up information and pit stratergies then I can see how it could be used in qualifying to gain an advantage, but we are talking one driver for a couple of races, not the entire team for the whole season. It strikes me that the WMSC screwed up by offering the drivers immunity and are looking at ways to effect punishment without hurting the drivers when it appears to be the drivers (one in particular) that seem to have been in a position to benefit the most.

Aer,

There are other things swirling around this. For the FIA and others to say that "if Ron Dennis leaves, then its all over" sure shows that this was done, or possibly done to get him to leave McLaren.

Agree totally with the rest of your post.

There are a few things to ponder, if you think about it a little while. Before the first hearing, you have to figure McLaren did quite a bit of digging to figure out exactly what transpired. To go into a WMSC hearing unprepared isn't likely, given the stakes. McLaren gave their case, said it was limited to one guy. and got off lightly.

Now, at hearing number 2, more information comes out that indicates what McLaren told the FIA in hearing 1 was essentially a load of crap. There's no way you'll convince me, or the FIA, that at least some of this wasn't known to McLaren at the time of hearing number 1. All we know now is what they have found since the first hearing. Given the difficulty of digging up all of the relevant information, or finding anything that passed between two or more individuals in a simple unrecorded conversation, I'd wager there's a lot more that will never come to light. Convincing me that a control freak like Ron had no knowledge of any of this will likely never happen.

Also, if Alonso had real time information about Ferrari race strategy and setup data, you'll never convince me nobody else on his crew knew about it. Alonso would want any advantage he could get, particularly given Hamilton's performances this year, and no race strategy decisions are left to the drivers alone.

Like I said, this is far from over.

JR

VERY far from over, and without Alonso cooperating and now e-mails with his name on them showing up I would not be surprised to see him have action taken against him.

Its one thing to watch video or take pictures of others cars. I even heard of teams, Ferrari and MClaren taking pictures of each others cockpits. I also know all the teams listen in on each other, nothing new there, Ferrari isn't the only one doing that. Its a whole new game when you are working with a mole and getting team secrets.

This is all nuts and it sucks, its ruining what was otherwise a very exciting season and I for one never liked Alonso and like him a whole lot less now.

Well if the chain of info went from Coughlan directly to Alonso's & his crew, you can bet that Hamilton was indeed left out of the loop. FA would probably share that info with other teems before giving Hamilton any form of help. Obviously at some point Hamilton caught on or was informed, but I have a feeling he will come out of this squeeky clean.

I think that Alonso is safe (he had immunity)....

Not safe from Ron Dennis nor the British press.

Both of them will be after Alonzo and de la Rosa's hide, in small pieces slowly ripped from their body...

Aside from the fact that Hamilton used Alonso's set up for the first few races this year... opting to go his own way in Hungary...and Turkey and returning to Alonso's set up in Italy you are right.

Also setting aside the fact that a now key Ferrari employee left Ferrari in 2004 to work for McClaren and then returned to Ferrari in 2006; having spent two full seasons on the race team as a technical director....leaving 'unexpectedly' at the season's end, but in time to regain his job at Ferrari...certainly legal and accepted spying.

Interesting to see the seedy under belly of the 'sport' being dragged kicking into the light.

Well kids, if anyone needs anymore proof that this is a witch-hunt against Ron Dennis and McLaren, here it is...

Guess its ok for Renault to take data from McLaren but if McLaren does it from anyone else its illegal....

~~~~~~~~~~~~

F1: Briatore Vague on Renault Use of McLaren Data

Written by: Adam Cooper, RACER Magazine Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium – 9/14/2007

Briatore: His turn in the spotlight? (LAT photo) MORE PHOTOS

The matter first came to light at McLaren when the team did a thorough review of its IT systems in an attempt to see whether any information relating to Ferrari and Nigel Stepney had been passed around.

During that search it was discovered that a team member who had subsequently moved to Renault had downloaded information. It’s believed that he took three CDs of data with him to Renault.

On becoming aware via a source that McLaren was already conducting an investigation into the matter, Briatore personally approached Ron Dennis at Monza and volunteered that Renault had indeed obtained some McLaren information.

We understand that the initial “shopping list” of information he offered did not entirely match up with that already compiled by McLaren as being copied. Subsequently Renault has added further items to its original list.

Questioned on the subject at the FIA press conference on Friday, Briatore said, “I think McLaren was judged by the World Council, and there was enough evidence to find McLaren guilty – it’s as simple as that. I don’t want, at this moment [to talk] about Renault because, first, we are not being investigated, second we give all our evidence to McLaren and to Mr. Mosley and to the Federation.”

The matter is now being discussed by lawyers representing to the two teams. Curiously thus far there has been no indication from the FIA that it will pursue a case against Renault.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/40260/

This is just the kind of controversy it needs to make it interesting though. Maybe it'll start appealing to more people because of this - odd irony, really.

Very interesting link, everyone should check it out... gets good around 3.3

The guys on SpeedTV said Alonso was "allowed to withhold his setup"

Did Hamiton go his own way or was Alonso holding out?:confused:

Apparently, Alonso got permission to quit sharing his data with Hamilton, forcing Hamilton to set up his own car.

JR

According to Steve Matchett, the teams have the setup info for both cars on their network. He believes that the "not sharing setup info" was just lip-service to appease Alonso.

So what of the notion that Alonso tried to Blackmail the team to drop Hamilton for the remainder of the season in return for not revealing the emails and cell phone calls to the WMSC? I'm having a hard time believing that to be true unless Ron Dennis does not want to take any action against Alonso until they decide about an appeal of Thursday's ruling.

In the absence of any other consideration, and assuming that the blackmail allegation is true, there is no way that I would allow Alonso in my race car. Has anyone heard any confirmation of this allegation?

I watched the coverage today to see if it was mentioned and not at all. My guess is that the Speed lawyers said that if its not been confirmed that you cannot talk about it at all, otherwise we get sued.

If its true, it will come out, just like the Ferarri intercepting the radio transmissions of everyone else 5-6 years ago. Someone will slip and say something then it will all open up. Other option is that McLaren gets rid of Alonzo at years end because like you I cannot see Ron Dennis putting up with this crap from anyone, at any cost.

McClaren use a base common set up for the cars..and permit each driver to fine tune their own preferences.

In the first races Alonso's fine tuning was used on both cars, as LH prefered to let the more experienced FA find the 'best point' for the car.

After his remarkable series of results he 'felt' competent to do his own fine tuning..with a resultant dip in performance.

This showed just how much Alonso was 'giving' to LH....as a result its clear that Fa is the one getting the most out of the car and so the 'more valuable' driver.

Clearly this is not going to change much during the season, FA's only option was to not share his data or at least not all of it and force LH to do his own....which in view of his 'issues' with the team he has reason to believe are inferior to his....

My guess is that RD knows too well that if FA is released he will not get LH or Fa to win the Driver's Championship so will go out of 2007 empty handed, not acceptable...

SO he keeps FA until the end of the season and depending on how good LH is at developing the car (ie getting close to FA's times) he keeps FA....(or LH).

RD's only concern is McClaren winning, drivers are 'disposable', if they do not do the job they can go...he let Prost go and Senna...both a bit above the current crop...

I had to leave and go to work with 5 laps left so I didn't see the very end. But...... I opened up F1.com and saw a picture of Kimi, Massa, and alonso on the podium. What gives? the FIA said that Alonso and Hamilton will not be eligible to participate in podium award ceremonies for the remainder of the 2007 season. Did they change their minds?

Can't have a McLaren rep on the podium - the drivers were unaffected by anything legal-wise.
European justice is VERY weird....

The FIA said that McLaren personel would not be allowed on the podium for the remainder of 2007. That is for the staff in the event that a McLaren driver wins a race, not for the drivers themselves. You will not see Ron Dennis or any other staff there but hopefully the drivers will be there often in the next three races.

Would love to be a fly on the wall when Ron Dennis has a "come to Jesus" talk with Alonzo about his first corner antics with Hamilton. Alonzo's pushing his team-mate off of the track was simply not needed and loved it when Peter Windsor nailed him in the post-race interview about it. Notice that he looked down when asked about it? He knew what he did was wrong.

He is sealing his fate in the F1 community by doing things like this...

Sorry, but I had to chuckle when I saw it because Alonso did exactly what Hamilton does during every start. Hamilton ALWAYS moves waaaaay over to block (er, protect his line). He's done it for every race this year. I've seen him do the same thing to Massa. The main difference this time is that he's too stubborn to lift and tries to stay with Alonso, so Alonso moved him over to the runoff area. There are a few other drivers from the past who would've done the same thing - Senna, Mansell, Schumi, Prost (maybe).

Oh. I guess I assumed that ruling included the Mclaren drivers. go figure.

Scott, I was laughing about the same thing. Alonso put hamilton in the weeds on turn one, he must have made six moves to keep his "teammate" from passing him. He didn't do anything that hamilton doesn't do but most of the time the opponents let hammy go by to keep from getting wrecked. Of course MS used to do the same but he was a little more discreet about it most of the time. I guess team orders don't mean squat when the contructors points aren't available, now it's every man for himself at Mclaren.
I can't wait until the next start in two weeks, I bet a quarter that either Alonso or Hamilton won't make it past the first turn with incuring some damage. I'm thinking they will both "hold the line" and wreck each other. If that happens it could be a total meltdown for that team. Maybe if the bosses at mclaren put their feet down and make them both behave they might be OK.

Whaddaya think the chances are of having Kimi and Alonso both driving for ferrari next year? Nah, prolly slim and none. Sure would be cool tho.

Sorry Joe, Ron was perfectly OK (!) with FA's driving....at the first corner.

The whole team will however get a hard time....they really didn't get their act together this week end... and RD will not be happy about that.. one bit..

I think we will see more of FA...there are too few good drivers currently to oust him...

Ron wasn't the one who got driven off the track. I bet hamilton wasn't too happy about it.
We'll see how they respond in two weeks. i hope that Alonso doesn't wimp out and let hamilton push his way by without a fight.

Interesting post MFAFF. That would explain a lot.

Does anyone think this would not have happened if it didn't automatically hand the constructor's championship to Ferrari?

My guess is the FIA would have done nothing if it would have helped another team instead.

A few years ago a Coke insider offered Pepsi secret information. Pepsi immediately notified Coca-Cola management and the FBI. THAT is corporate integrity. THAT is what McLaren should have done....................

Remember it well and the woman who did it is now in jail, right where she belongs. Was nice to see Pepsi "do the right thing" in this case.

You know, I never liked Ferrari and Todt all that much, and I was until now giving McLaren the benefit of the doubt, because Ferrari has been caught cheating several times over the years (whether you call illegal devices cheating or not is up to you, I do), while Macca so far had a pretty good reputation... but you have to admit, with those driver email exchanges between de la rosa and Alonso (and goodie 2 shoes Hamilton acting all saintly and innocent, as always), I find it very hard to believe Ron Dennis knew nothing at all about the Ferrari documents...

I mean, come on... Your test drivers and Alsonso are chatting about Ferrari tire usage and weight distribution with the test engineers (because last time I checked drivers did not so much as touch a nut or bolt on their cars), and nobody knew anything ?

Anyway, I also rather enjoyed Alonso putting Hamilton int he weeds at the start... I expected this to happen sooner, and the retaliation should be fun to watch too... Maybe Raikonnen can still be WC if those 2 take each other out ? ;-)

I have to say I liked Hamilton for the first few races, the smile, "genuine" awe at what was happening.... Call me a sour puss but I don't believe he's that genuine anymore, following a few well publicied incidents and radio conversations. He's as good a politician as any future WC ever was, that is to say as much of a ruthless ********* as Senna, prost, schumi and alonso ever were...

I'm gonna root for Kovalainen now, the only seemingly nice guy left in the top 8, but then again maybe Renault will get excluded too ;-)

Well here's my take. The FIA should have used a rifle and not a poorly aimed shotgun fired in a bout of pique.

If the World Council were truly an unbiased, deliberative party they would have meted out appropriate punishment. Alonso- and not McLaren- would be losing the bulk of the points. No one can show that RD knew anything about this or acted anything but ethically- but FA on the other hand- used it, profited by it and then apparently attempted to blackmail his own team with it. He should have been kicked out for the rest of the season- and had his points stripped. If they really wanted this sort of ***** to stop they would have pulled his superlicense too- and put the burden on him to prove he deserved it back. That would have punished him and McLaren.

The ruling was anything but consistent and ample evidence, in my view, of the extreme dislike Mosley harbors for RD. Requiring that no McLaren reps or employees stand on the podium is ridiculous. A lot of honest employees helped put that car there- yet the greedy driver who apparently did cheat and used the information- gets to spray champagne? Why? Why not just limit that portion to Directors or Officers and other particular parties if you must send a message to McLaren?

FIA/Ferrari approval of the FY08 car (Jean Todt and one of their former directors- as well the Director of Sporting Activities for Italy- are on the Council) is equally absurd. Did the information really contain anything that would have helped them design next years car? C'mon. This is pure spite- and only helps one manufacturer.

A $100 million dollar fine?? You've got to be kidding me. Would they have fined Jordan or Spyker or Red Bull this much? Where do you think that money's gonna go? Have they ever even come close to levying a commensurate amount for other penalties?

No constructors points? That would be fine- if the rulings were consistent- I think any manufacturer should lose constructors points every time they or their driver's cheated- but that plainly has not happened. As it is all they did was hand the title to Ferrari- it's meaningless this year.

I love F1 and have ever since I was twelve. But look at it now- the racing seems almost secondary. Bernie and Sam have turned it into a greedy haven for multimillionaires and effete, sexist snots who love dirty dealing and politics.
Nothing like seeing "Puff Daddy" being escorted around by Bernie....I wonder who has the larger retinue....

I won't be attending an F1 race so long as Bernie and Max are involved. Besides I paid 600 Euros for the last ticket and felt like one cow in two hundred thousand being lead to the slaughter house. I treasure the racing but am tired of supporting the F1 circus.