WRC vs. P-car?

[Nevergrowup]

OK, first off - I know there's nothing faster on twisty gravel roads than a WRC rally car, but as I was watching the coverage of Rally Catalunya last week, a question arose.

As that rally (and this week's in France) is almost strictly tarmac on twisty mountain roads - how would... say Walter Rohrl (sp?) do in a Porsche?

He's a former rally champion, and knows the current Porsches as no other.

And what would his weapon of choice be? RS3? Boxter S?

I think a TV show should do a test of this. Rohrl on the same stage and compare times. Would be fun. (And potentially deadly too... )

[Komenda Fan]

At a guess, I would have to say his choice would probably lean towards an RSR or a RS spyder, suitably set up...

[scottmandue]

You should email you request to the TV show "top gear" sounds like the sort of thing they would do.

Has a Porsche ever raced in WRC?

[sketchers356]

I think that it would be most interesting with a 997 RSR. Those WRC cars are pretty hardcore.

[Komenda Fan]

Some specs...

997 GT3 RSR

RWD
Weight - 1225kg
Power - 485 bhp
Torque - 321 lbs/ft
Length x width = 174.8 x 77 inches

WRC Ford Focus

AWD
Weight - 1230kg
Power - 300bhp
Torque - 406lbs/ft
Length x width = 170.1 × 70.2 inches

So for the same weight, the WRC car is torquier, smaller,and AWD, which will help it on the tighter tarmac stages, while the RSR has the higher HP for any long stretches of tarmac. Remember too that the WRC car is set up for Rally, with things like an E-brake set up to help rotate the car easily, and AWD is a tremendous advantage laying down the power out of tight corners...I guess it all depends which rally stage you are racing...

As for Porsche in the WRC, they won most recently the Monte-Carlo Rally in 1978 with Jean-Pierre Nicolas, and had been competitive in rally racing around the world until AWD became required to win. In some rally's even today, Porsches compete and win, but not in WRC.

[jriera]

I am not Walter Rohl (unfortunately) but having done (many, many moons ago) the Catalunya and Montecarlo rallies with an SC, an R5 Turbo, an Audi Quattro and a Lancia Delta Integrale; I will say that AWD has all the advantage even on dry-tarmac-twisty roads, nevermind in stages like the Col de Turini with full snow at night.

[Tobra]

They ran that Paris Dakar thing in more than one P car, and it seems to me many are and have been campaigned in rally races of all sorts. They have all wheel drive porsches, seems like a 959 would do pretty okay in just about any sort of racing if you gutted it

[dd74]

FWIW, here's footage of a Porsche SCRS rally car with some explanation about why it can be a competitive rally car.

[livi]

Let me give Björn Waldegård a call. If Walter or Vic is unobtainable he would be the next best choice - old fart or not. Particularly on snow.

[svandamme]

they tried to get a GT3 RSR class launched for rallies in Belgium , but havent' heard much about it since...

either way, a GT3 RSR is not going to beat WRC cars in rally events, not a chance

can't beat AWD when it comes to rallying, not even the full tarmac ones since those are generally not on super grip tarmac, there's mud, gravel ( that came out of the tarmac) , bumps and what not, low grip compared to a dedicated track

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by dd74

FWIW, here's footage of a Porsche SCRS rally car with some explanation about why it can be a competitive rally car.

correction, it WAS a competitive rally car
in 2007 , it's absolutely not competitive at all

if it were, you'de see teams driving it in WRC

but as WRC is limited to 300 BHP
there's no sense in taking a GT3 RSR , detuning it
and then not winning anything due to lack of traction
you can loose in a cheaper car then that

most WRC events are on gravel, dirt, snow, ice
even if there was no horse power limitation, the GT3RSR could never make up in HP what the others deliver in terms of traction... it just doesn't work like that

Porsche 911 stopped being a competitive rally car when the Audi Quattro entered the scene, the C4 when it came out, was underpowered , and the 911 Turbo didn't come with AWD... there has never been a AWD 911 RS version, and the 959 came out just when Gruppe B was cancelled...

the only AWD 911 that did rally events, was that safari version, and that was a one off...

[J1NX3D]

Originally Posted by Tobra

They have all wheel drive porsches, seems like a 959 would do pretty okay in just about any sort of racing if you gutted it

look up the porsche 961.

theres heaps of media about on the net with pics and vids of porsches rallying, from pre 911's, early 911's, 959's, SC's, 964's, 993's, 924's, 944's and even 928's doing targa rally. Theres even vids of a white-yellow GT3 that rallys in europe. You can probably find them on youtube.

i think WRCs rules have made porsche ineligible or non-competitive for quite some time.

here in NZ (and Australia) they are extremely competitve in our national targa event, NZ targa. out of a field of some 170 cars at least 45-60 will be porsches.

over the last 5 years its been a 996 GT3 or a 996 turbo winning, losing top spot a few times to a well driven FD RX7 and usually with an R33/ R34 GTR close on its heels.

[svandamme]

no offence, but the NZ Targa, is not comparable to what they do in WRC
i don't see any of the real pro names in that event either
so to me that says it's not the real competition,
it would be like saying that Ford has competitive open wheel racers
because they win races in a local competition where they have fun with open wheel racers built around ford Sierra engines, when we know for fact that any of the F1 cars and drivers would run circles around any car in that local competition.

don't get me wrong, i'm sure they really go fast and all
but it's not the same level as the WRC teams with cars designed for WRC, with the proper fully sequential gearboxes and fancy hardware...

at this time, when it comes to rallying, the benchmark is WRC
if anybody is discussing "competitive" then it would have to be something that can challenge and beat a WRC car, driven by a top WRC driver, throughout the WRC championship
anything else, is just nancy'ing about in this context...

another thing
Rallying is many surfaces, tarmac is just 1 of them
the fact that Skylines can slug it out in the NZ Targa, says that event is full tarmac, nothing else, that's a very, very limited part of Rallying
i'de like to see a Skyline hold his own in a rally that has mud, ice, snow, rain , gravel...
i think it would be found wanting
just like a GT3 or 911 turbo would

[J1NX3D]

sorry i didnt explain myself properly. yes i know the WRC is totally different level from NZ targa, which though its still an international event, it isnt part of a championship series and have cars built by factories specifically for it. Porsche hasnt built a car specifically for world series rally for years. ( but wouldnt it be great if they did!!)

Yes the NZ targa is a fully tarmac event. Targas in this part of the world usually are and elude to Targa Rally ( as Targa NZ is pomoted as) or Tarmac Rally.
What im saying is that porsches here have found a niche away from the track in the same vein as real rally that they truely excel in, sans all the top level rally equipment.

there are some international names there but being Kiwis or Aussies you probably havent heard of them.

Does anyone know where i can upload a 100mb video? i was on a start crew for WRC Rally NZ '07and made a video of it. i'm having issues uploading to youtube...

here is that GT3 that rallys: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=911+gt3+rally&search=Search

but just because it does rally desnt mean i think its the right tool for the job! In Aussie there used to be a late 90's ford falcon xr8 that was in their national league. it was the weirdest thing to watch! (rwd + 351(?) v8)

[masraum]

I was wondering what wheelbase would have to do with it. I would think that something with a centralized mass (mid engined) and a short wheelbase would be great for WRC. Sort of like the 908 was for the Mille Miglia.

I just looked at the WRC Ford Focus, wheelbase 2640, and the Porsche Cayman/Boxster, wheelbase 2415. I'd guess that except for the fact that the Cayman isn't AWD, that it should be great at something like a WRC. And how hard could it be to make an AWD Cayman (for Porsche).

But I suspect it's all about factory support, and it seems that Porsche isn't looking to advertise in WRC (which is what most racing is about when it comes to factory support, isn't it).

[J1NX3D]

i think for wrc it must be 4 door? i cant remember, but all the group A cars are 4 door.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by mAd924

i think for wrc it must be 4 door? i cant remember, but all the group A cars are 4 door.

Maybe the new Panamera!

[TGTIW]

4 doors aren't required for WRC or Group A. In fact, except for Subaru, most in the WRC are 2 doors. Is anyone running anything but a Subaru or Mitsubishi in Group A? I think the Cayman would be a fun choice, and the fact that it's not 4wd is inconsequential. The standard Focus isn't 4wd either.
The 959 was built to fulfill Group B requirements, and had the class not been canceled, I think Porsche would have done very well. But I think it mostly comes down to the fact that the costs are immense to run a competetive WRC car, and the series seems to be following the same path the BTCC went down.

[legion]

In addition to the 300hp limit, doesn't WRC also limit the displacement to 2.0 liters?

That said, couldn't a 911 Turbo (already with AWD) be built to displace 2.0 liters? Put in some RSR running gear and PRESTO! A 911 rally car.

Weren't there also rumors of AWD for the Cayman/Boxster platform?

[J1NX3D]

oops, dont know what i was thinking!
the focus is 2 dr, daaah me... theres the also citroens.

the wrc sti's still seem to be 4 door.