I've spent significant portions of my career re-working programs from offshore. (Although the worst company I worked with was in the U.S.--they sent us VB code that didn't even compile, much less work.) After the time I spent trying to understand how offshore attempted to solve the problem and re-working it until it worked and met standards, it would have been much quicker for me to write and test the program from a clean slate. Of course, they never gave me a "reworking code from offshore" bucket to log my time to, so that "cost" has remained hidden (intentionally, I think).

You guys are way off. Where I work the IT guys are all genius' and this place wouldn't run for a second without them. They are all cool too, that's why the chicks secretly dig them.
All us engineers are envious of them, the way they can always solve the problems so fast. I just wish I was as together as they are, I should inveite them all out some day for a beer.

(shhhh! they're watching) SmileWavySmileWavySmileWavySmileWavySmileWavy

To me, engineering and IT require very similar critical-thinking skills.

With engineering, the rules of physics do not change but knowledge is constantly evolving. Engineers can build a knowledge base that holds true for their whole careers.

With IT, changing from one platform to another can change all of the rules. Things evolve, but sometimes they also change drastically with new hardware/software. Building the perfect solution is just about impossible as by the time it is implemented, it is already obsolete. You can be an expert and a master one day, and a complete novice the next.

Most engineers I know like to seek absolute certainties: a bridge will hold up under a given wind load. Most IT people know that they can only at most be certain about something for a given moment.

i can relate to what legion says
it's the thing i hate the most about the whole business
experience doesn't weigh as much as it should
and on top of that, i feel that IT companies in general aren't that loyal or appreciative for loyalty...

most jobs, you do em, you gain experience and reputation
after 10 or so years of successful work history, you can move shop, and not be treated as a beggar for work

in IT, you'll still have to prove your worth every time you go for an interview worth doing
if you have all the certifications that exist since you started the IT career, they'll grill you on people skills, and other thing
if you don't have the certifications, or they're a bit older, they'll grill you with technical tests as well...

hell, i've been in it for 11 years, worked 6 years as backline at Novell and frankly was to overworked to even think about certifications
now i moved back to Belgium, and now i get this recruiter, that calls me and says :
well, i see you as a junior profile
i'm like "on what basis?"
well, your resume isn't really sexy
i quickly recheck my mail to him , checking i didn't send him the wrong thing, nope
i ask him what about the last six years? doesn't that mean anything to him

he replies :well, i'm just filling in for my colleague who's on maternity leave, i normally don't do IT

i nearly popped a vein :angry:

this preppy douchebag holds probably half of all the really high profile IT jobs in my region
and he won't even give me the time of day because he thinks i'm a junior, simply because he's an incompetent twat

frankly IT is loosing my interest in a big way
little loyalty, nothing lasts, not the jobs, not the results you delivered, not the things you built
constantly fixing stuff that you warned them that it would eff up, but they dismissed your "negative" arguments, and when the **** hits the fan, them's gone screwing up something else, your stuck with the ****

i've broadened my scope now, i've got some experience in operational management, project management, have enough interest and knowledge in basic mechanics and electronics, so i've applied for non IT team lead jobs as well... the agencies all responded positively, they don't see any reason why i should be considered.... fingers crossed, it's a monkey business and if i can get out, i don't see why i shouldn't go for it..

Dilbert Rules
although at times demotivating, since you read the book at home, then live the book at work
some of the tricks in it are usefull though, although probably not appreciated by coworkers and management... "Way of the Weasel" and "how to have fun at the workplace at the expensive of your coworkers" should be the standard gift to any kid who starts working in the corporate world

On a serious side, an IT person, as with pretty much anyone else, is going to try to behave and get away with as much as they can. They're management/leadership is just as complicit in abetting the bad behavior if they're not workign to extinguish it.

Likewise someone who's gonna seek out or accept a management position in IT has to get up to speed on WTF the technology their subject matter experts are responsible for, otherwise they're never gonna make it in the court of credibility and public opinion.

I've known post-docs doing cancer research that have such attitude and SPD that they make Nick Burns look like Jesus Christ with a nutdriver.

My IT guy weights more than my Tacoma, is as ugly as a mud fence, but is the best kid I know.

Geek? I don't know...what I do know is that the big kid makes us smooth. The big kid has skills. I'll pillage the village that tries to take him from me.:D

He puts the IT in IT.

the first thing I do with our IT guys(top notch IMO) is ask"what could I have done wrong? so when I do screw up they give me a break.

This is funny, because from my experience, it's always been the Programmers and sometimes Network Engineering who act like they're superior. It seems all of IT looks down on Tech Support as if they're lower than them. And (with all due respect) we're even seeing it here: wannabes........flunkies, high school grads if they're lucky, etc. (paraphrasing).

Most of our staff (Tier I and II) are college grads, are superior in customer service skills, profesisonal at all times, extremely qualified technically, yet they find themselves being treated as if they're some sort of "burden" on the Tier III staff. They get shyt from the customers (but are NOT allowed to react unprofessionally, they are to report it, if anything), they get shyt and total disrespect from the Tier III staff, they truly are the ones who get shyt on in the department.

I'll be honest, in IT architecture I do tend to look down on the desktop support, and server engineers.

i don't look down on anyone, except if they are troublemakers, then all bets are off

Didn't mean to "pi** in your Cheerios" Cool Chick, but I was referring to my experiences with the "Help Desk" folks who are typically the first to be outsourced and HAVE been already (again, "made in China" quality). I could care less about degrees, etc. One either "has it" (or not) with regards to critical thinking and being able to logically think through, and "solve" IT/engineering problems (and that includes new, never seen before issues, not "doing what worked last time"). I personally have always had a great relationship with the folks you refer to (while working for two of the US's largest banks). I have no problem "explaining" the whats, whys, etc. and typically, they do "what they do" VERY well, but... Sorry 'bout the rant...Sammy's buying, and I'm in :)!

As a veteran of IT, the list is pretty much spot on, IMHO.

-Z-man.