Are small aircraft pilots selfish?

[Zeke]

Here I sit ready to leave once again to find some quiet. Living near an airport can get on one's nerves. The novices, students and recreational pilots are out in force every Sat and Sun. We get as much as 30 operations per hour right over the house at only a few hundred feet. They are supposed to turn within a quarter mile of the airport boundaries, but most bank right over the house. Each student passes over every 7 minutes. Sometimes I have a visual on 4 at a time. There is another parallel runway a quarter mile south and that one has a lot of traffic as well. I can only hear those for a combination of maybe 40 ops/hr., or constant 4 cyl noise.

So, who has the money to waste this fuel? Who can justify flying a small plane? Why do the instructors allow the students to fly beyond the perimeter of the practice pattern? Frankly, I don't think they even think of any of us on the ground and how miserable it is with all these wasteoids in the air.

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The Long Beach Airport is trying to expand into more commercial flights. This is an idea being fought vigorously by homeowner and schools rights advocates. The thing is, the big birds are quieter and when they are taking off or landing, the little puddle jumpers have to get out of the way. I say bring it on and ground the little wasteoids.

Of course I've grown up in this flight pattern and lived here the majority of my life. I still don't accept it. Oh, and my current residence was built before the airport, so that argument is empty. The airport got it's toe hold because of Douglas and WWII. However, it has long outlived its appropriateness being centered inside a population of well over a half million. The oilwells are gone, the factories are gone except one.

Boeing (who disposed McDonnell Douglas) is on its last legs here. Once they fold up the last line (C-17), we don't need no stinkin' (literally) airport. One mid-air and it should be game over. It's due any time.

[Joeaksa]

They feel the same way about Porsche (and most other car) owners driving around "wasting fuel and making noise" in their sport.

Here you wonderful example of humanity, let me modify your words to fit how the airplane owners and pilots feel about YOUR sport:

So, who has the money to waste this fuel? Who can justify driving a Porsche? Why do the people drive beyond the where they need to for work and shopping? Frankly, I don't think they even think of any of us around here know miserable it is with all these wasteoids driving their damm Porsche cars around.

[stomachmonkey]

Posted earlier in the year re the excessive helicopter traffic over my house on the weekends.

Turns out I was not the only one fed up with it.

Became the front page story here for a couple of weeks.

They are now being forced to change their routes so they fly over the LI Sound instead of residential areas.

The traffic was due to the yuppies from Manhattan using helos to get to and from the Hamptons on the weekends.

Friday to Sunday was really unbearable. We'd get 4-5 an hour during "rush hour".

You could not enjoy a barbecue or just hanging out in your yard.

[Jim Bremner]

if it goes, Can we build a road course there?

[Zeke]

Joe, that doesn't make any sense at all. I drive my car sparingly, but it gets better mileage than my work truck. I'd take it on all estimates and such, except for the connotation of a 20 YO Porsche at customer's curb beyond their 40K SUV in the driveway.

I think a lot of small aircraft pilots have sports cars. I don't think they can ask me about justification.

I can get groceries in a Porsche and I can get to the doctor's office, etc. Unless you live on a remote island or inaccessible area, you don't need a plane for that. IOW, my car is not a "waste" in that it can serve as meaningful transportation. I'd like to survey the number of pilots that "commute" with their plane. (I really don't have to unless pilots tend to commute at lunch time and at 5PM during the week (good hours for students that have a job) or on weekends only when traffic is 10 fold.) It's mostly for pleasure and we know this. We call %PM "happy hour" around here for a different reason. No one is really happy.

I can park a car at home. Maybe 5% of aircraft owners can say that.

My car is quiet and is subject to laws in that regard. Small planes? I don't think so or the muffler designers are a sorry assed bunch.

My car has passed smog checks and is registered as such.

I don't drive "out-of-bounds" unless you can count the times I have been at a track. I don't drive around the block continuously doing "touch and go's."

I don't have to annoy anyone to learn to drive or teach anyone to drive. If I annoyed the population as much as the pilots, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now.

I have the same feelings about motor driven yachts.

If I were on the phone with you this instant, I'd have to pause because I can't hear you. Eight planes have passed directly overhead while I typed this.

[legion]

I live less than a mile from the Central Illinois Regional Airport. It's actually pretty quiet as it is mostly small commercial jets and corporate jets. It's louder in the summer when the private pilots come out to play, but we are far from either of the runways. They mostly head out over the corn fields to do their aerobatics and what not anyway. There are currently no commercial flights between 10 pm and 6 am (passenger or cargo), so I am very rarely ever awoken by late-night flights. Besides the two runways make an X, and our house sits between them--no planes are ever lined up over our house. Some of the private hangers are near our subdivision, but there are enough mature trees around that I never hear those planes inside the house.

[Zeke]

Why should I be on the defensive? Let's see someone justify these POS's.

legion, lucky you.

[p911dad]

Milt, maybe if you go over to the FBO and take an introductory lesson you may develop more of an understanding of why those "wasteoids" are boring
$100. holes in the sky. You may even find that you like it and want more. Hey, you never know until you try it. When someone gets bit by the flying bug there is no turning back, you suddenly get it, like there is nothing else.

[Tobra]

You have two choices.


1. Live with it.

2. Move.

You can perhaps keep it from getting worse, but you are not closing any airports.

[jorian]

Ask Jeff Alton this question......

[legion]

Originally Posted by Tobra

You can perhaps keep it from getting worse, but you are not closing any airports.

What, he can't send out bulldozers at midnight to tear up the runway?

[widgeon13]

Certainly respect your opinion on airport noise. You say your residence was built before the airport was built, did you own the residence at that time? Splitting hairs I guess.

I live within the pattern of a busy NE airport (major training flights) and have listened to the sound for 30 years. Guess there is a little difference, I own an airplane.

i apologize for my fellow pilots. I always try to respect the landowners below me and maintain a little extra altitude. Altitude is your friend.

[BlueSideUp]

Milt did you live in your house before the airport was built or did you move there after the airport started operations?

Certainly the pilots need to follow the noise abatement procedures concurrent with safety but if you bought and moved into your house at the end of the runway knowing it was there you don't have a lot of ground to stand on. Despite that the pilots should be following the information on the website.

General aviation actually does a lot to support your local economy. I'm sure a lot of people think that small airplanes are only used for rich people to fly out to Catalina for lunch but a lot of aircraft are used for businesses. The people training are possibly learning for a career or learning so they can expand their own business. Perhaps they are just practicing to make sure they are safer pilots.

Here is information from the LGB airport website..

Aircraft Noise Abatement Procedures For Flying Friendly...

Departure
Attain as much altitude as possible before reaching residential areas.
Use full length of runway when able.

Approach
Avoid flying long, low, high power, high RPM approaches.
Approach on or above glideslope/VASI/PAPI.

Pattern
Pattern altitude 1000 ft MSL, large aircraft 1500 ft MSL.
Remain as close to the airport and as high as practicable.

Practice Missed Approaches
Reduce power/RPM when safely able after initiating the missed approach.

Noise Curfews
Ordinance #C-7320 City of Long Beach Municipal Code Chapter 16.43

The only active runway from 10:00 pm to 7:00 am is Runway 30/12 unless otherwise notified per NOTAM/ATC (Check ATIS).

No formation takeoffs or landings are permitted.

Engine runups, for purposes other than preflight, are allowed only between 7:00 am and 9:00 pm, M – F, and 9:00 am and 9:00 pm, weekends and holidays at locations approved by the airport manager.

No intersection departures are permitted between 10:00 pm and 7:00 am.
To request a noise reading or noise testing, please contact the Long Beach Airport Operations office at (562) 570-2635.

Training Operations
Touch & go, stop & go, and low approaches are not permitted on Runway 30/12 and are limited to the following hours: 7:00 am to 7:00 pm, M – F, and 8:00 am to 3:00 pm, weekends and holidays.



Are you near runway 30/12? Training is not allowed on that runway so you'd have a case if someone is training on that runway.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by gmeteer

Milt, maybe if you go over to the FBO and take an introductory lesson you may develop more of an understanding of why those "wasteoids" are boring
$100. holes in the sky. You may even find that you like it and want more. Hey, you never know until you try it. When someone gets bit by the flying bug there is no turning back, you suddenly get it, like there is nothing else.

I've been up. I went flying in AL out of a small airfield next to Talladega Speedway used by the racers en mass twice a year. Otherwise, there is only a volunteer tower. I flew the plane over the racetrack on a normal weekday and the view of such a facility is awesome. I have not been up since and don't care to. I flew once before 20 years before that in a single engine job. 20 years between flights tells my story pretty well.

But, what, are you saying that I'd like all this ground noise if I were a pilot? Come ON!

I can toss my car around and slide it a bit if I want to and I'm in an appropriate place. I can experience acceleration and braking forces, not to mention the cornering. I came from a karting background having raced those suckers for 30 years. Coming up over a rise in a kart and seeing only the sky between your feet at 80, 90 or more is flying. I get in a 911 and it's oh so. Now riding with Jack Olsen, or in some beast is more like it.

How many pilots know how to throw a plane around? Let's face it, flying is dull unless you really know how to fly and/or can fly the government stuff. Or, you gots the big bucks and a P 51. Yeah, I could get into that. (Well, I'm too old to withstand it and that's why I don't race karts anymore. But, I haven't forgotten the feeling. ) A Cessna? No thanks.

This is all I see, the little stuff droning on day in and day out. Now and then, we see something exciting. Like 3-4 times a year we see a B1. A couple of times a month we see some F/A 18's. These guys have no mercy when they hook up. Little animals and old people go running. Children scream in fear. All the car alarms go off along with a few house alarms. It's mayhem for about 10 minutes, but one can see the brute power. I've seen the Hornets disappear sound-wise in 30 seconds. No telling how far out they are at that point. During the LBGP, we see all the corporate planes. Hey, Sunday late is time to sit in the yard and guess, Newman, Penske (not any more), or whomever.

You know the greatest time I have ever had in this city was the few days after 9/11. One could remember that we live by the ocean in a not-too-bad a place. Gradually, back came the noise. At least they banned the banner draggers, for the most part.

A Cessna? No thanks.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

Are you near runway 30/12? Training is not allowed on that runway so you'd have a case if someone is training on that runway.

Due West of monitor 6 about 3/4 mi.

You know the answer to your question about residency. I wasn't born yet when the airport was built. But, I was born to live at a residence about a half a mile from where I live now. I really didn't have a choice at that point, did I? The only choice I have is to move from my birthplace because of circumstances, or live with them. However, who says that's right? We didn't have many little planes when I was a child; not like there are now. And, don't I have any birthplace rights to even be able to complain? I think I have at least the right to complain since I have been here since birth. Those that moved in recently certainly knew what they were doing, I'll give you that. However, I'm not a member of that group. I like that fact that I can go by the tree where I carved my initials (before that was a big no-no) when I was a kid.

I know I've complained about the gangs, the fact that Long Beach is the poorest city in the state and the 6th poorest in the US for cities over 100K. But, these qualities, or lack of, are not a good excuse for the general aviation folks to trash the place. Fly in your zone or park it. There are private, single family homes on all four sides of the airport. Why not take off and practice at a remote strip? No, let's just fly over and over and over again Milts' house all day and piss him off.

I was gonna draw this big picture up on the roof of a single engine plane with a big dick in it's nose like it was sucking it, but my wife said I couldn't do that. I just keep the prototype on the wall in front of me.

[Tim Hancock]

Milt, as you know I am a pilot and I small fly airplanes. I fly out of my small grass strip in a rural area. No disrespect intended, but I hope and pray that when people enventually build houses on the farm ground around me, they do not share your loathing of small airplanes.

You say you wonder why these folks learning to fly do not do it at a small remote strip somewhere. Well not all small strips have businesses on them that give flying lessons. I don't know much about Long Beach, but I am guessing that in that part of California, there are not too many small rural airports very close.

Most airports in populated areas have noise abatement policies that prescribe various procedures to limit noise, maybe you could ask the flight school about whether they are aware of them and if they are following them.

As far as mufflers go, most of the noise you hear is from the propeller, not the exhaust. In-bound jets make little noise as they are at reduced power settings, but if you are behind an outbound jet, it will be loud.

I know many private pilots and while some are VERY rich, most are just average income folks who enjoy the freedom of flight. The majority of students flying around at your airport, ARE not the VERY rich pilots.

I can understand your disdain about the noise (As a pilot and enthusiast, I love airplane noise over my house, but I can understand non aviation people not appreciating it), but I think your attitude about who and why these Cessnas are training at the airport is completely off base.

I guess ultimately IMO, if the airport was there before you moved there, then you should learn to appreciate it or move. I can't help it, but this reminds me of when city people move to the country across from a farm, then complain about the tractor noise and the animal smell.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but that is MY opinion on the subject.

[BlueSideUp]

Now that would be funny to see! Your plan would probably backfire because people would be flying over the house with the "big dick sucking Cessna" on the roof.

One airport I flew out of always warned of flying over the crazy old lady's house, she was a little senile and had been caught shooting at airplanes.

I never trained in Socal but I'd imagine people are training on 25R/7L because there aren't many good options in the LA basin. Well many better options anyway.

So you are 3/4 of a mile from the monitor which is 1/2 mile from the end of the runway. I'd think they would be making a crosswind turn north or south by 1 mile or so. At a normal climb rate a GA airplane should be around 7 to 800 feet by the time it passes over your house at a minimum. I wonder what the normal patterns look like and what the tower does to keep airplanes in close to the airport. I'm sure part of the problem is that the larger aircraft and the airlines use 30/12 so the tower ends up sending the guys on 7R/25L out on an extended upwind. They probably just say "Cessna 1234 extend your upwind over Milt's house before turning". Of course they could be saying "Cessna 1234 extend your upwind to the billboard with the cessna performing fellatio".

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Milt, as you know I am a pilot and I small fly airplanes. I fly out of my small grass strip in a rural area. No disrespect intended, but I hope and pray that when people enventually build houses on the farm ground around me, they do not share your loathing of small airplanes.

You say you wonder why these folks learning to fly do not do it at a small remote strip somewhere. Well not all small strips have businesses on them that give flying lessons. I don't know much about Long Beach, but I am guessing that in that part of California, there are not too many small rural airports very close.

Most airports in populated areas have noise abatement policies that prescribe various procedures to limit noise, maybe you could ask the flight school about whether they are aware of them and if they are following them.

As far as mufflers go, most of the noise you hear is from the propeller, not the exhaust. In-bound jets make little noise as they are at reduced power settings, but if you are behind an outbound jet, it will be loud.

I know many private pilots and while some are VERY rich, most are just average income folks who enjoy the freedom of flight. The majority of students flying around at your airport, ARE not the VERY rich pilots.

I can understand your disdain about the noise (As a pilot and enthusiast, I love airplane noise over my house, but I can understand non aviation people not appreciating it), but I think your attitude about who and why these Cessnas are training at the airport is completely off base.

I guess ultimately IMO, if the airport was there before you moved there, then you should learn to appreciate it or move. I can't help it, but this reminds me of when city people move to the country across from a farm, then complain about the tractor noise and the animal smell.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but that is MY opinion on the subject.

Tim, I continue to appreciate the favor you did for me a few months ago. I'm not fighting either. In fact, I'm more worried bout KevinP73 than I am about planes. But, if I weren't complaining on a lazy Sunday, I'd be out of character.

The issue about which was first is pretty lame since the airport and the house I live in were both built way, way back in the last century. The planes at the time were scarce and they could take off in a few hundred feet. In fact, in the barnstorming days, the LGB of the time was the wet sand at the beach! they have pics in the lobby.

So, when they moved to Dougherty Field, it was only for a few planes. And no war planes. Both the neighborhood and the airport grew simultaneously and far enough from each other. I'm sure that if Douglas had not settled here and WWII became a reality, the airport would have been closed. Well, history is history and we can't change that.

The thing is, Long Beach has passed on some pretty good opportunities to build a world class international airport down at the port or off shore. But, that possibility is now gone as the port grew instead while they waffled about the international deal. BTW, our city slogan is :The International City."

With no airport to speak of. Great.

As a general aviation facility, the lack of commercial and scheduled flights over the years has opened the door to the smaller planes. At one time, we were the busiest general aviation airport in the country while there wa NO scheduled service This way over shadows the development of the residential communities that surround the field. The old which-came-first argument is not a good one here. It's an issue of proper development and usage.

This field is right next to the 405 freeway. I have always maintained that we could have restricted the use of the airport to Boeing, Gulfstream (apparently the world;s largest spray booth is located out there and that's where the new Gulf's are painted, believe it or not) and built a football stadium on the property. Hey, with the salaries today, the players could fly their own craft in like the racers do.

But no, with one 10,000 foot runway that can't be lengthened again, we are going to chase more Jet Blues to come here. Like I said early on, bring 'em. They displace all the circle jerks.

It's just out of whack like so many other things Long Beach. Want to hear the Queen Mary story? At least the only noise it makes is in the newspapers.

Well. it's a little aft 5 PM here, getting dark and all the little birdies are back at the nest. Quiet time.

[mikester]

You're lucky, try living next to LAX.

Now, I'm a very tolerant to airplanes sort of guy. Otherwise I wouldn't have purchased a house close to LAX. I grew up on Air force bases, Dad was flight crew and I really do love airplanes. The noise is irritating, they moved the southern most runway 55 ft closer to my neighborhood in the last year and the difference is tremendous. I didn't even consider it would be that big of a deal but it's incredible how much louder things are.

They have a residential sound insulation program of which I have taken part. The rewindowed the house, added some insulation and such (it was supposed to take 2 weeks, started mid-august and still isn't done) and there are times when with all the windows closed I still can't watch TV or have a conversation on the phone.

Some days I notice it, some days I don't.

The problem with LAX isn't its configuration it is the sheer number of flights that are sent through it. If I built my computer networks with such little network tolerance as our airports and ports have I Would be fired. We need a regional solution so that if something bad happens to LAX the rest of the region can absorb the capacity.

I'm ranting...sorry...no my thread...

[dd74]

My complaint isn't with small aircraft pilots. At Burbank Airport, the small aircraft are Lear Jet-like planes, and by and large, they're not nearly as bad as 727s. Those things are incredibly obnoxious noise-wise when they take off. It always seems as if the pilot is hammering these planes as they climb, while the 737s and larger jets aren't nearly as loud. Is this something inherent with the 727 that they have to be so loud when taking off?

Sure, there are louder planes. Some joker has a military jet he likes to fly out of Burbank. But the thing is so freakin' bad-ass, the plane has to be excused on principle.