How Long Do We Have?

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

you'll never vote for Obama or Paul.

Or Hilary or Thompson.

I was kind of hoping Bloomberg would enter the race.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Moses

Or Hilary or Thompson.

I was kind of hoping Bloomberg would enter the race.

Yeah, then we can have a nationwide ban on transfats and all guns.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Moses

Or Hilary or Thompson.

I was kind of hoping Bloomberg would enter the race.

Bloomberg is a little too liberal for my tastes.

[Usmellgass2?]

I think BV has presented a very good point. This information helps to shed light on why people of certain demographics vote a certain way. In a nut shell there are 2 large groups demonstrated here. One that feels the government should provide them a comfortable living and one that wants the government off their backs so they can provide for them selves.

There is of course other issues but I think this is the overwhelming underlying one that compels our politics.

I have always thought BV was a narcissistic rich kid ( not that that is bad, I envy that) but I think he is spot on this time.

btw we do not live in a democracy, we live in a republic.

[nota]

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

For the history buffs (not me), what has been the cause of the fall of all the great empires? What are the common themes?

invasion mostly for the mid-eastern ones up to alex the G
then splits and rot was a main cause

rome fell to the christians who caused the DARK AGE in the west

western euro's got quite a few by hi-teck [gun] threw out the world
then lost them as the teck tranfered or the will to bear the costs became less

I do not see the USA as an empire, but do see the age of empires as over
modern trend is to split as the english and USSR did and form unions like the euro common market

[nota]

Originally Posted by Usmellgass2?

I think BV has presented a very good point. This information helps to shed light on why people of certain demographics vote a certain way. In a nut shell there are 2 large groups demonstrated here. One that feels the government should provide them a comfortable living and one that wants the government off their backs so they can provide for them selves.

There is of course other issues but I think this is the overwhelming underlying one that compels our politics.

but I see the nanny state as a GOP ideal
as the ban on sex and drugs is supported by the rightwing christians
and that is hardly getting the government off the peoples backs
I do support the idea of less goverment esp in the nanny state form

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally Posted by nota

but I see the nanny state as a GOP ideal
as the ban on sex and drugs is supported by the rightwing christians
and that is hardly getting the government off the peoples backs
I do support the idea of less goverment esp in the nanny state form

Those are social policies. I think Smellgas's point was about fiscal policy.

[Usmellgass2?]

Nota,
I think you are correct, there are groups such as the Christan right that want too much authority over individual choice and liberty. I feel the popular concept of extreme political correctness, overwhelmingly supported by the left, and the hordes of professional victims that have been spawned are just as bad. Nether should have a place in our government. I would be very happy if I never heard from Pat Robertson or Al Sharpton again (fat chance).
I will point out though, Sharpton and his cronies feel much more entitled to the earnings of the productive people in our society. The left openly acknowledges that the more people they can get on social programs the deeper their vote pool will be.
These are splinter issues, I feel BV's original statement is very true of the big picture.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Usmellgass2?

I think BV has presented a very good point. This information helps to shed light on why people of certain demographics vote a certain way. In a nut shell there are 2 large groups demonstrated here. One that feels the government should provide them a comfortable living and one that wants the government off their backs so they can provide for them selves.

wow. nice analysis of the data (some of which is completely false btw...did you read the snopes link?). Can you look at tea leaves and see a picture of a pony as well?

[Usmellgass2?]

Nostatic, try to grow up enough to discuss issues like an adult. Leave the smack talk to the punks on MTV

btw I missed the snoops link. I have seen very reliable mapping of the election by county and clearly supports the same concepts.

[nostatic]

you take a fabricated set of rather ambiguous data, and reach an asinine conclusion. What's to talk about?

Please tell me how the data equates to the righteous right being taxpaying citizens and the left being tenement-living leaches. Really. 'splain to me because I don't see how number of square miles won fits into it. Unless of course you already have your conclusion and you're grabbing at any dumbass number you can to fit with a racist, xenophic agenda.

Oh wait, was that too MTV?

[Usmellgass2?]

Ya it really is a little too much MTV. Its demographics plane and simple. Im really not surprised you are waiving that race card already. Definition of a pro victim.

[nostatic]

i'm simply taking the original "data" and "analysis" to task. Period. If you think that is reasonable work then more power to you. I think it is simply an agenda propped up by garbage. And the snopes research proves that.

If you want to argue that the welfare state is going to be the end of the country, that is another discussion. But you instead were congratulating the OP on the great data and conclusions.

[Usmellgass2?]

I am not going to spend much time nit picking the "data" I believe the OP supports very sound concepts. My opinion is formed by many years of data and experience that I am obviously comfortable with.

Thank you for dispensing with comments about tea leaves ect. That educates no one.


I do feel we are being seriously hurt by the trend to move towards a welfare state, and sooner or later it well lend to the collapse of our economy. When everybody wants a free ride there is no one left to pull the cart.

[Usmellgass2?]

I just skimmed the snoops page as you suggested. The OP and the snoops opinion does not seem too far apart. the numbers and references does not match perfectly. I am not surprised. But I feel it tends to support to concept of the OT more than discredit.

[nostatic]

years of data and experience in what capacity? In social science research? Cultural anthropology? Economics and/or political science?

Concepts without "data" are empty opinions. You can support them, but do so blindly. Again, I think that accepting tripe arguments as originally put forth do more to damage this country than the welfare state. A lack of critical thinking and analysis skills are part of the problem with this once-great land and economy.

If you have other data and analysis to support the conclusion that "40% of the population is in the governmental dependency phase" I'd be happy to see it. And especially how one can draw that number from election data.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Usmellgass2?

I just skimmed the snoops page as you suggested. The OP and the snoops opinion does not seem too far apart. the numbers and references does not match perfectly. I am not surprised. But I feel it tends to support to concept of the OT more than discredit.

So you believe that 4 pieces of data (one of which is fabricated) is sufficient to lead to the conclusion drawn?

[Usmellgass2?]

My opinions are far from formed from anything blind or empty. My education is in Mechanical engineering, My wife recently studied cultural anthropology (not her major). We found it fascinating. My opinions come from 50 years of political awareness. If you choose to dismiss my opinions as un enlightened you are wrong. If you do not agree with them that is fine and you have my respect.

[Moneyguy1]

One will cherry pick available data that supports preconceived ideas. There is no arguing with a true idealouge.

How long do we have? Depends on how long before the rift in our society gets to a point where there will, by necessity, be another Civil War.

[nota]

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

Those are social policies. I think Smellgas's point was about fiscal policy.

well welfare is a social policy
and inforcement and prisons cost money too
so in fact there are very few real pure social policies
all have costs

the other biggie is the cost of CORP WELFARE
as most list that as being far bigger then the small payments to people
esp if the CORP farm programs and tax credits are inc in the totals

I personaly would favor a smaller federal goverment
less inclined to be a nanny state except to limit CORPs
but with a balanced budget paid for by taxing the rich
as the original income tax laws was ment to do
and leave the welfare programs to the states