Man tasered to death at Vancouver Airport - video footage released

[Won]

News report released the day after the incident: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071015.BODY15/TPStory/TPNational/?page=rss&id=GAM.20071015.BODY15

...
Private security personnel were unable to deal with the man and contacted the RCMP office at the airport. RCMP officers tried to calm him down, repeatedly telling him to put his hands on the counter, police said, as he continued to pick up objects from the counter.
They interpreted his level of violence as escalating," Sgt. Lemaitre said. "He failed to recognize any demands he was asked. ... It was obvious to officers - he was sweating profusely - this was going to escalate."
After being tasered, the man fell to the ground but was still combative.
"It took three officers to handcuff him; he was still struggling," Sgt. Lemaitre said.

CBC News clip: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8UQgC2AGm_U
Full video clip: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6wYEBd-Mpus


According to the RCMP spokesperson on the CBC news report, after the video was released to the public:

... But it's only one piece of evidence and one person's view; it's through the viewfinder of one individual

Quite frankly, I didn't care much for this whole thing until now; it was tragic that the man died and I felt sorry for the family, but I mean he did behave aggressively at an airport, at least according to the RCMP, which in today's world is quite possibly the worst thing one can do that will get you in deep trouble quickly. But now that the video is out, I'm truly disgusted by the RCMP and their actions. Ok so everyone makes mistakes, and using the taser on the man who was quite clearly cooperating with his hands in the air (contrary to the initial RCMP statement) was a big mistake, but they will argue it was necessary, blah blah blah, and probably will get off the hook as the police always does. But to say that this video represents only one person's view as their defense for lying to the public in the first place is really something... I'm sure it's not the first time and it won't be the last time but it just makes me sick.

Also note how TASER international is busy covering their ass with a nice statement issued on CNN MONEY. This was the 16th death in Canada this year from taser use.

[masraum]

The guy was acting like a wacko. He intentionally destroyed a computer. Cops have been killed by people like that. If the cops had tried to nicely talk to the guy, but instead, he had killed one of the cops, what would your comment be?

I don't put myself in situations like that, but if a cop felt compelled to use force on me, would I prefer that he use his gun, billy club, or a taser. I'd choose taser. Yes, it can be deadly. So can the other two and so can wrestling someone. If you aren't aggressive, and you cooperate, you won't have a problem.

[Dave L]

I listened to this story on the radio and they were interviewing the guy who shot the video.

The person who recorded it had said that the man was acting aggressively throwing things around etc but once the police came he calmed down and appeared to cooperate. They then tasered him and one of the officers knelt on the mans head/throat with his full weight. I havent read a lot about the story, but I cant see why someone would kneal on someones head once he has be subdued by a taser.

They also brought on a Polish interpreter from some Polish group (so perhaps more than a little biased) After listening to the event she said that the man sounded as if he were relived that the police had arrived.

I personally think that the guy was an idiot to start trashing an airport but when 4 police arrive I cant see why they would taser him. Couldnt the four of them simply grab him, cuff him and then find out whats going on. With airport security the way it is the likely hood of the man having a gun, knife or nail clippers would be very low. The taser has become the quick easy way to control a situation and not the "last resort" as it was intended.

[Porsche_monkey]

He was not violent or threatening to the cops.

It should have been apparent to them that he could not speak English. There was no attempt made to find someone who could speak to him.

They spent almost no time attempting to deal with this guy in a less agressive manner.

He was in a SECURE area of the airport, the chances of him being armed were virtually nil.

This is a tragedy brought on by poor decision making, using a dangerous weapon to subdue a man, and bad luck.

Perhaps the police followed procedure, time will tell, but if so then the procedures are wrong, and so are the tools they used.

Our cops are not exposed to the same guns and violence that some other places see, and we don't expect or accept this behaviour.

[steve185]

[QUOTE][Our cops are not exposed to the same guns and violence that some other places see, and we don't expect or accept this behaviour./QUOTE]

You are kidding right? The RCMP has lost two members, both shot, in the last month! It's easy to criticize after the fact but it's a whole different story when you are there and must make split second decisions.
Steve

[911Rob]

Let the guy that shot the video put his life on the line against wackos like this and see what he does?

I agree, acting up like that in an airport today; not acceptable, it is very unfortunate that the man died, however it wasn't the officers fault.

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by PBH

He was not violent or threatening to the cops.

It should have been apparent to them that he could not speak English. There was no attempt made to find someone who could speak to him.

So why is that the cops fault that he couldn't speak English? Maybe learning a few simple phrases in the native language before you step on foreign soil would be a smart move. Can't this guy dial a phone with his mom's phone number? The last thing you do when 4 uniformed officers approach is say "aaahhrghhh" and start walking off with your hands in the air. Big no no.

Taser deaths are more often than not a trigger related to a deeper pre-existing health issue. That said, I would have knocked the guy off balance or grabbed him and spun him to the ground...depends...if the responding officers in this case already knew he tossed a computer and a table, I wouldn't take many chances. Ever had something tossed at you or been spit on by wacko? Guess not...

[PatrickB]

WON- Putting your hands in the air is not cooperating or following instruction! Getting face down on the ground is! That's the first verbal instruction given in situations like this. If you knew anything about hand to hand combat, having your hands raised in the air actually place you at an advantage for striking first. Placing your hands in the air is NOT following instructions, and is actually considered a hostile and aggressive move. It's so EASY to Monday morning quarterback about what happened the day before by watching a video. Especially by folks like you, who know NOTHING about police tactics or training, yet claim to be the resident expert!

How many people would follow the instruction of 4 armed police officers shortly after you destroyed a computer, then through a chair against a glass door? I would venture to say most would... Allow yourself to be placed into custody, THEN talk to the officers and explain yourself when the officers no longer perceive you as a threat. Considering the absolutely bizarre, aggressive, and non-compliant behavior exhibited by the suspect, I think the officers exercised extreme restraint in not using lethal force. Let's not forget, this gentleman died 10 hours after the incident occurred. I would be very interested to find out about the coroner's report.

The victims bizarre behavior is consistent with someone under the influence of PCP, however, he really didn't look like the type of individual that would smoke PCP. Keep in mind, while being tazed, it still took 3 officers to place mechanical restraints on him. This type of superhuman strength is also consistent with someone under the influence of PCP. WON- unless you've actually attempted to place an individual in restraints when they are under the influence of ANY controlled substance, I think you might change your tone... Or I would at least hope you would! I wasn't actually there, so I wouldn't be able make the conclusive statements that you have. Just curious, how long have you been a use of force expert?

[Won]

The incident happened after he spent 10 hours in the terminal.

I just deleted a couple pages' worth of rant because I know it will offend a lot of people here. No, unlike Patrick I haven't got a clue in police tactics or training, and I'm not an expert in hand to hand combat, but I do believe some common sense may have changed the outcome of the incident; you can blame the man for not speaking English but was there no consideration for the fact that this was an international airport and you'd expect to encounter such problems? The man may have put his hands up to gain a first strike advantage over 4 armed officers, but he then turned around and took a few slow steps, and stood against the wall. Is that really the point where you absolutely have to fire the taser? Maybe I'm too much of a Monday morning quarterback, too stupid and misinformed, and putting too much faith in basic concept of common sense between people. I can mostly understand the arguments of those who are saying that the police did nothing wrong, but something is still bothering me and I don't know exactly what it is. At this point mostly it is the fact that RCMP could not give a better excuse for lying. Try explaining it to us stupid people with reference to police tactics and use of force experts. They say there are already on-going investigations about this incident. Hopefully I can form a better, more solid opinion once they finish with that.

I realized that the title of the thread is misleading if the cardiac arrest from which the man died was not triggered by the taser shots, but we will have to wait until the coroner's report is made public to know if it needs to be changed or not, won't we?

Guess who's been watching the news:

[makaio]

[QUOTE=PatrickB;3594225]
I would be very interested to find out about the coroner's report.

QUOTE]

+ 1

I would be willing to bet he was under the influence of something other than just fear.

As for peopel that think this was extreme or wrongfull on the police officers part, fuch off! Untill you have lost a friend that has died in the line of duty, you have no room to talk.

I would buy those officers a round of beers if I saw them in a bar.

[Jeff Alton]

This happened in my town, I have seen the video and heard the press releases, so here are some points to consider....

- fellow had been stuck there for 8-10 hrs in a secure area not speaking english and proabably pretty hungry.
- not a single security, Canadian Border Service, Airport employee etc tried to find out why he was there.
- the womam, a regular citized, seemed to be able to calm him down with hand gestures before the cops arrive

Now, I am the last person to take a 'bleading heart" stance when it comes to the police. I can't stand when someone complains about getting roughed up or feels like they got treated poorly when they were arrested. However, there are a few things about this that stink, and stink real bad in my opinion.

1. When the police seized the tape and would not give it back, the spokesman said how the attending officers had tried really hard for a long while to calm the person down. Cough cough, 26 seconds was how hard they tried......

2. When the tape was siezed, the spokesman said they would not give it back as it was a "big piece of the investigation".

3. Once the person who shot the video went to court and got it back, yes, it took a court battle to for the owner of the video to get it back. The same police spokesman said it was only a very very small piece of a very complicated event.

4. And here is the big one for me. Once the person steps in from the side of the camera and checks for a pulse, the rest of the officers do nothing to try to save him. One coils up his taser wires while the rest stand around.

I was not there so I will offer no comment on the use of the taser other to say that I will give the attending officers the benefit of the doubt for the choice of using it, at least until a court or investigaiton finds otherwise. However, I do have a problem with the fact they all just stood around and made no attempt to revive the victim.......

I just walked past the scene last night as I arrived home pn an international flight. I could not help myself from stopping and taking a look around the area. It is a sealed and secure area, no way out really. The general public, at the time was separated from the scence by secure glass panes. The person was still on the secure side of the airport, in otherwords the only way in there was to have passed through security at your point of departure.

Like I said, I wont judge the officers choices of use of force, I will leave that to the folks tasked with doing so, but I think they maybe could have made a bit of an attempt to offer some sort of help for the victim, for which they are trained.

I wonder how many security gaurds, border service folks and security people manning the 700 cameras at YVR either watched this guy numerous times, walked past him at the start and end of their shifts or maybe even joked with a co worker about how long he had been there......

Anyways, it is a said chain of events. Should he have acted the way he did and an airport? No. But the outcome sure did not fit the behaviour displayed.

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

Patrick, the fellow spoke no english, and the attending officers were advised of that, on tape, when they arrived. Also, being in secure area he would not have had access to any drug. The area he was in is secure from where he left the aircraft.

That does not mean it may not appear to the officers like he was under the influence, just it makes it highly unlikely that he was.

Cheers

[Dave L]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

WON- Putting your hands in the air is not cooperating or following instruction!

this is news to me, I havent ever been involved in a "take down" but I imagine that if I were somehow in a Polish airport unable to communicate and the Police came to get me I am pretty sure I would put my hands up. Isnt putting your hands up the unspoken sign of giving up??

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Dave L

....I personally think that the guy was an idiot to start trashing an airport but when 4 police arrive I cant see why they would taser him. Couldnt the four of them simply grab him, cuff him and then find out whats going on. With airport security the way it is the likely hood of the man having a gun, knife or nail clippers would be very low. The taser has become the quick easy way to control a situation and not the "last resort" as it was intended.

That's what it looks like to me. Lazy lowest common denominator way to deal w/the situation. I am quite pro-LE, but this looks like they couldn't be creative so "we can't communicate, let's just Tase him, that will be safe for us" seems to have been the method. The guy looks like he is on a rant (who wouldn't be after 10hrs in a place where they can't communicate), not trying to threaten the officers. The hands up thing looks like the "I'm fed up" action more than a surrender or attempt to threaten the officers. I don't know, was this the first time he was in an airport?

[sammyg2]

I've spent quite a but of time in an airport and have never been tazered, arrested, detained, or even harrassed. Why is that? because I don't ask for it.
Why do people rush to protest and stand up for low lifes and idiots who do incredibly stupid things and then directly because of their actions, they get hurt? Are we a nation of idiots or lowlifes who think, "hey that could be me, I'm dumb enough to act that way" ?
Are you planning to take a chair and threaten people with it? Are you planning to smash a computer on the ground that doesn't belong to you?

If you behave like a psycho nutcase, you will be treated like a psycho nutcase. If you do stupid, violent, disruptive things, other bad things will happen to you. That is not a bad thing. It's called a deterent.
Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Id like to see some of you bleeding heart criminal supporters tackle and subdue a violent lunatic who is thrashing around wildly without getting hurt.
You will end up with a fat lip, broken nose, something.
The police do not have to risk getting hurt, they are not supposed to do that.
If a perp is unresponsive to commands or out of control, he SHOULD be tasered.
He (or she) should be tasered often until he complies and cooperates. A night stick is another alternative, whatever it takes to make the tard behave and follow commands.
It is better for a nutcase to get hurt than a police officer.
The nutcase is asking for it and deserves it, the police officer is just doing his job.

[TheMentat]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I've spent quite a but of time in an airport and have never been tazered, arrested, detained, or even harrassed. Why is that? because I don't ask for it.
Why do people rush to protest and stand up for low lifes and idiots who do incredibly stupid things and then directly because of their actions, they get hurt? Are we a nation of idiots or lowlifes who think, "hey that could be me, I'm dumb enough to act that way" ?
Are you planning to take a chair and threaten people with it? Are you planning to smash a computer on the ground that doesn't belong to you?

If you behave like a psycho nutcase, you will be treated like a psycho nutcase. If you do stupid, violent, disruptive things, other bad things will happen to you. That is not a bad thing. It's called a deterent.
Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Id like to see some of you bleeding heart criminal supporters tackle and subdue a violent lunatic who is thrashing around wildly without getting hurt.
You will end up with a fat lip, broken nose, something.
The police do not have to risk getting hurt, they are not supposed to do that.
If a perp is unresponsive to commands or out of control, he SHOULD be tasered.
He (or she) should be tasered often until he complies and cooperates. A night stick is another alternative, whatever it takes to make the tard behave and follow commands.
It is better for a nutcase to get hurt than a police officer.
The nutcase is asking for it and deserves it, the police officer is just doing his job.

I pretty much agree with this... It's even more stupid if you consider the beatdown this guy probably would have gotten if he pulled these shenannigans in Eastern Europe!

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I've spent quite a but of time in an airport and have never been tazered, arrested, detained, or even harrassed. Why is that? because I don't ask for it.

So have I. I have been threatened by TSA because I asked the question "How come I have to take my shoes off when white woman in front of me did not and I have walked through the detectors before without them going off" (back before everyone had to take their shoes off)

Originally Posted by sammyg2

........
Id like to see some of you bleeding heart criminal supporters tackle and subdue a violent lunatic who is thrashing around wildly without getting hurt.
You will end up with a fat lip, broken nose, something.
The police do not have to risk getting hurt, they are not supposed to do that.
....

I've done it in the ER and in acute psych with people bigger than I and obviously on drugs. Without a gun. Without handcuffs.

Can you not fathom being locked up in a no-man's land one window thickness from where you want to go (I don't know this was the case) unable to communicate with anyone, for apparently no good reason? Maybe not eating?

That guy did not need to be tased.

[Dave L]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Id like to see some of you bleeding heart criminal supporters tackle and subdue a violent lunatic who is thrashing around wildly without getting hurt.
You will end up with a fat lip, broken nose, something.
The police do not have to risk getting hurt, they are not supposed to do that.
If a perp is unresponsive to commands or out of control, he SHOULD be tasered.

I would never describe myself as a "bleeding heart criminal supporter" but I do believe that 4 officers who are trained to deal for this sort of situation should have been able to get the guy under control. If the man at that point was violent or tried to hurt the police then sure, taser away. They seemed to skip a step or two before they tasered the guy, is my point.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by artplumber

I've done it in the ER and in acute psych with people bigger than I and obviously on drugs. Without a gun. Without handcuffs.

That guy did not need to be tased.

I agree.

I'm guessing that Jeff Alton will be posting more info on this incident.

Oh yeah, "nil carborundum illegitimi" - ha ha! I wore a silver i.d. bracelet in the Navy that had "non illegitum carborundum" engraved on it . Don't speak Latin so might be grammatically incorrect - though I'm sure it translates the same.

[makaio]

[QUOTE=artplumber;3594798] The guy looks like he is on a rant (who wouldn't be after 10hrs in a place where they can't communicate), QUOTE]

Maybe he shouldn't have been headed to Canada then!