A few months ago, I thought it was all over the Internet where bikers intentionally 'zipppppped' through these things to "use up the films." They intentionally were going so fast the the camera could not take clear pictures.

Good for them!

Nice to see some people fighting back against this kind of crap. If I ever meet one of the guys that did that, I'll buy 'em a beer.

Flame on!



Of course you realize it's only a matter of time before L.E. starts staking out the cameras in an attempt to catch "vandals" though, right? Ironic, considering if L.E. were sitting there in the first place, the cameras wouldn't be necessary.

Fcuk yeah.

Hmmmmm....I wonder what my .30-06 would do to one of those sumbiatches.....?

There is a difference between a "freedom" and a "right". We all have freedom to make decisions. I'm just sick of people making decisions that endanger others. Driving their SUV through a red light while on the cell phone, makes me crazy. How will it be stopped w/o some kind of extraordinary means. They have the right to drive, just not the freedom to kill people in the process.

How else will you change their behavior, that is what this is all about. Give me a solution not the traditional BS about taking away someones rights. The cameras seem to be there because there is no other economical solution.

I agree completely... until the freedom to make our decisions it taken from us. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're saying because some people can't make good decisions none of us should be able to make our own decisions. I agree there are people who are complete idiots and do things that harm others, never said there weren't. What I am saying is I am willing to take my chances if it guarantees my personal freedoms. I am not apposed to laws, they are there for the exact reasons you state. I am apposed to too many laws that remove personal freedom from innocent people. Cameras watching everyone starts to erode your right to privacy...where does THAT end? A law making it a crime to exceed the speed limit is fine, a law making it a crime to build a car that can exceed the speed limit is not.

Quote from Ayn Rand (Anthem):

The greatest guilt today is that of people who accept collectivism by moral default; the people who seek protection from the necessity of taking a stand, by refusing to admit to themselves the nature of that which they are accepting; the people who support plans specifically designed to achieve serfdom, but hide behind the empty assertion that they are lovers of freedom, with no concrete meaning attached to the word; the people who believe that the content of ideas need not be examined, that principles need not be defined, and that facts can be eliminated by keeping one's eyes shut. They expect, when they find themselves in a world of bloody ruins and concentration camps, to escape moral responsibility by wailing: "But I didn't mean this!"

How about having cops sit or even hide at intersections to catch red light runners? That would actually improve road safety, which speed enforcement doesn't do at all. As for motorcycles, plenty of them must run red lights, especially if they're the only one at the red light, because they don't weigh enough to trip the sensors under the pavement to change the light. It's extremely frustrating when you want to go straight or left and the light simply will not change because it takes at least 1500-2000 lbs. to trip the sensor. My bike and I have a combined weight of under 700 lbs.

I think we agree on the problem, how do we arrive at a solution? How do we get the idiots to comply/behave/respect others freedoms. Unfortunately, this is not utopia. I hear a lot about "rights" but not about solutions, not from you personally just in general. I'm not attacking your thoughts I just wish someone would offer a better solution than cameras and DUI stops in order to address the issue. People don't respect the laws, you see it every day. Drivers using cell phones on the highway, very simple task, against the law yet people choose to disregard that law. Just one of many examples. Running stop signs, passing on the right, driving in the breakdown lane into construction sites to get to the head of the line. It's endless, they do it all the time. My wife says "why get upset at these idiots, life is too short", that's true. I just want to make sure I'm around to have a long happy life. These other ******* idiots don't care for anything but themselves.

I'm all for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Too true. I wish I did have a solution to the problem but, alas, I'm not smart enough to figure that one out. However, I still am not willing to bow down because of the stupidity of others. This is going to be one of those epic arguments that I fear will never be truly solved but will be argued to the end of days. Time will tell. Good discussion though, I don't get much opportunity anymore for these. ;)

The problem is one of balance. Freedom without accountability is chaos. Since our society has decided to abandon accountability, freedom has been restricted.

Personally I think the pendulum has swung too far. We used to be a nation of pioneers. Bold risk takers who pushed the envelope and made dramatic achievements. Now we have become a nation of helmet laws, jaywalking violations, carpool lanes and ticket writing speed cameras. It's sad and pathetic. Far better to live in a country where the government fears the people than the people fear the government.

Remember those amazing videos of the skydivers in flight suits? Those videos were shot in Norway. If it happened here, they would be ARRESTED.

Speed laws are fine, but only in order to protect public safety, not to generate income. If a reckless driver injures another person, THROW THE BOOK AT 'EM! If you can demonstrate that a drivers excessive speed is a threat to public safety, give them a ticket. Hidden cameras? Cops crouching in the bushes? Soon we'll have satellite transmission of your OBDII readings and you'll write yourself a ticket!

I don't trust Big Brother. Don't tell me the speed cameras are for public safety. I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid.

This is not about accountability, it's about money.

Other than that, I agree with Moses.

As far as the bit about some idiot in an suv running a red light while on the cell phone and killing someone, does it really matter if there's a camera there? Neither the camera nor the traffic light will protect you. You're just as dead if such a person slams into you. The only thing that WILL protect you is situational awareness and paying attention to what's going on around you - good ol' defensive driving.

If the average suv-driving, cell-phone yammering idiot in our society will ignore the existing laws, why in the world does one think they'll behave any differently to a camera or a new law? I'm willing to bet they drive around just as oblivious as ever - it's just now there's one more thing they'll be oblivious to.

Americans need to get their heads out of their asses and learn that technology (which we've put on a pedestal and become overly spoiled by) can't be a substitute for basic skills and common sense.

fixed cameras are easely fixed, gps poi data available everywhere to point them out while you drive


every camera that get's burnt
will be replaced, you just know it will be

somebody has to pay for it, so you first get a ticked, then you burn the thing, and then they'll replace it with your own money,
talk about flawed reasoning?

frankly , getting a ticket is bad enough, but paying for fixing vandalized ticket machines is beyond me
i'de rather see those funds go to something more useful then fixing burnt camera setups

Civil disobedience has little to do with economic efficiency.

If using the camera is not about revenue generation and all about safety then why don't we do away with fines and only just use the point system on a driver's license? Get enough points your license is suspended. Seems easy enough to do and much cheaper than running a system to impose fines. I'm sure the places using these cameras aren't counting on them for revenue generation are they? :D

widgeon13, I'll give you a solution that will decrease the number of right angle collisions without increasing rear end collisions. No cameras needed. It has qualities that Rick pointed out in the Va. cases, but opposite. LENGTHEN the YELLOW.

Can't help you on the other stuff.

I'm not sure about Missouri, but our violations for red light offenses are civil. You can not rack up points on your record with civil violations. In fact, the use of these cameras is not authorized in the motor vehicle or related codes, it's in the health and safety code. That's where it all begins, at least for us Texans. If the state intends to criminally prosecute a motor vehicle violation, it has to be attested to by a real life officer.

You are right, it's about the money.

I think the idea here is to keep the issue in the public eye so people continue to be outraged by this and to put pressure on the bureaucrats and politicians to eventually eliminate the programs.

Obviously, this is an uphill battle since you're fighting the addiction of politicians (and the insurance companies who own them) to the two things they love most in this world - money and power. However, I think the whole "civil disobedience" thing serves a good purpose in cases like this to send the message that the public really IS this pissed off about it and resents it that much.

Or I suppose I could just be rationalizing how good it must feel to torch one of those infernal things or beat the piss out of it with a large metal pipe. I have to admit, doing either would bring quite a smile to my face.

While I never ever run red lights, I would not hesitate to fight any ticket I got for such a thing. Actually, I did get snapped once while I was in an intersection, waiting to make a left turn. Oncoming car turned left, but since they, of course, used no signal, I didn't know it was safe for me to turn and when I finally did, I saw the flash. But they got the side of the car and none of the plate. Anyway, I'd love to show up in court and ask to cross examine whomever says they saw me commit this crime. I think in DC it's a rep. from Lockheed Martin, which supplies the cameras. Pretty sure I could handle someone who wasn't there.

Why on earth do free people allow their government to monitor their every waking move like this? Those of you that defend the cameras, how about if a govt. camera crew just follows you around 24/7, (at your expense of course), to make sure that you are not breaking any laws or cheating in any way? That would be OK, right?

On the main drag in Bloomington/Normal, the speed limit is 45 mph. When I had my F150, even after I put new brakes on it, because of the length of yellow lights, the poor braking on that truck, and the speed limit, I could not bring it to a stop from 45 mph if the light turned yellow and I was within so many feet of the intersection without stopping IN THE MIDDLE of the intersection. I figured it was safer to blow the red light than to block the intersection. I used to do this 2-3 times a week because of the timing of the preceding traffic lights. I don't have this problem in the Silverado (1000 lbs. lighter and with beefier brakes).

I'd hate to think how many tickets I might have gotten if we had red light cameras...