What the he!! is going on? Another church shooting..

Vipergrün · 12-09-2007, 03:05 PM

I know many of you here are not religious, but things are getting out of control. Yesterday there were two killed at a church in Arvada, CO and today there was a shooting at New Life church here in Colorado Springs. Yes, the same New Life where the now infamous Ted Haggard was pastor.

My family and I were just at this church last night for a Christmas musical, so it hits pretty damn close to home.

Regardless if this is a church, a mosque, a temple, etc, things are getting nuts.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims and wounded.

Add this to the recent mall shooting in Omaha, the Virginia Tech shootings, what the he!! is going on with people? Malls, churches, home invasions, nothing is safe or sacred anymore.....

-Brad

HardDrive · 12-09-2007, 03:24 PM

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Kids raised on a diet rich in violence and narcissism. No moral values. No skills. No guidance. No conscious. Mindless little drones sucking on the mass media heroin teat like piglets.

More to come.

Is anyone really suprised? Really? Did anyone think that raising kids this way for the past 30 years was going to produce the next 'great generation'?

Zef · Zef's Garage

???????????...just look around...!

Oh Haha · 12-09-2007, 03:42 PM

I heard this on the radio yesterday. A letter written by Ben Stein.

Summarized:
We've kicked God out of our schools, and our lives. Being the gentelmen God that he is, he stepped out. I think it was referencing how God could let these bad things happen.

I'm not overly religious, either but I thought this was interesting take on our world today.

pwd72s · 12-09-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Kids raised on a diet rich in violence and narcissism. No moral values. No skills. No guidance. No conscious. Mindless little drones sucking on the mass media heroin teat like piglets.

More to come.

Is anyone really suprised? Really? Did anyone think that raising kids this way for the past 30 years was going to produce the next 'great generation'?

+1

Dottore · 12-09-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Garbage in = Garbage out.

Kids raised on a diet rich in violence and narcissism. No moral values. No skills. No guidance. No conscious. Mindless little drones sucking on the mass media heroin teat like piglets.

And add to that the ready availability of guns....

You reap what you sow.

legion · 12-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

And add to that the ready availability of guns....

You reap what you sow.

That's a fallacy. Guns have been widely available since this country's founding. Mass shootings are a fairly recent phenomena. Something changed, but that has been constant.

Dottore · 12-09-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

That's a fallacy. Guns have been widely available since this country's founding. Mass shootings are a fairly recent phenomena. Something changed, but that has been constant.

Surely if the kid didn't have access to the gun - he wouldn't be in the mall shooting it. Simple as that.

Why do you think these types of incidents are so much less frequent in countries with gun control?

legion · 12-09-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

Surely if the kid didn't have access to the gun - he wouldn't be in the mall shooting it. Simple as that.

Why do you think these types of incidents are so much less frequent in countries with gun control?

Nice tap dance. I will try again. Citing something that has been constant cannot be the cause of a new behavior.

Guns have been widely available since this country's founding. Mass shootings are a fairly recent phenomena. Something has changed. What?

masraum · 12-09-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

Surely if the kid didn't have access to the gun - he wouldn't be in the mall shooting it. Simple as that.

Why do you think these types of incidents are so much less frequent in countries with gun control?

Hmm. Your statement is, of course, correct from the point of view that if the kid didn't have a gun he couldn't have shot someone. Yep, that's hard to refute. But, then trying to say that it's a problem because of the lack of gun control doesn't necessarily make that fact.

I feel pretty safe in saying that it'd be impossible to get rid of the guns in the US. Even if you could get all of the honest, lay abiding people to relinquish their guns and 3/4 of the illegal guns in the US in one fell swoop, we'd still have a huge problem. I suspect that there are enough illegal guns that having even 25% of them floating around would be an enormous problem. Then add the fact that we aren't an island and guns would be smuggled in by the boat load, and we'd have a much bigger problem.

I think Australia recently got rid of all guns. I don't think it's made much difference to their crime.

lendaddy · 12-09-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

Surely if the kid didn't have access to the gun - he wouldn't be in the mall shooting it. Simple as that.

Why do you think these types of incidents are so much less frequent in countries with gun control?

Hmm, maybe if we ban pussy we can eliminate childhood pregnancy and STDs!

masraum · 12-09-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

Nice tap dance. I will try again. Citing something that has been constant cannot be the cause of a new behavior.

Guns have been widely available since this country's founding. Mass shootings are a fairly recent phenomena. Something has changed. What?

I agree with you. What has changed. I believe that it's an issue with the way newer generations have been reared. I don't think they have the values that they once did, and I'm not sure what can be done about it. When I think about it, which I do from time to time, I feel like the US is going to hell in a handbasket in a hurry.

One option is stricter gun control. I'm definitely an advocate of being able to own a gun, but....

as you've said, something has changed that's causing problems. If we can't fix that something, then maybe we need to take the guns that have been constant all of this time, and change them (or at least access to them).

legion · 12-09-2007, 05:13 PM

If we ban cars, we can eliminate drunk driving!

Dottore · 12-09-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

Nice tap dance. I will try again. Citing something that has been constant cannot be the cause of a new behavior.

Guns have been widely available since this country's founding. Mass shootings are a fairly recent phenomena. Something has changed. What?

Bush?

legion · 12-09-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

Bush?

Another fallacy. They precede his tenure, so he can't be the cause. Columbine? Postal shootings? All happened before George W. Bush.

Something has changed, what?

Rearden · 12-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dottore

Surely if the kid didn't have access to the gun - he wouldn't be in the mall shooting it. Simple as that.

Why do you think these types of incidents are so much less frequent in countries with gun control?

Then the mass murderers in the US would use organic peroxide bombs, like the European mass murderers use.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

If we ban cars, we can eliminate drunk driving!

I don't recall any really cool first-person drunk driving video games on the market.

Times have changed and as a country, we have 3 main choices:

1. live with random shootings.

2. gun control

3. ban any game or media that glorifies guns and killing while legislating a 1 salary household where one parent stays home and both parents SET LIMITS WITH REAL REPERCUSSIONS WHEN THEY ARE CROSSED.

While I do love a good social engineering experiment, I'm in favor of 1.

Aurel · Aurel's Garage

What has changed is that now, both parents are working to pay the $3k/mo mortgage, the $500/mo car loan and the credit card bills. So, the kids are left unsupervised with full access to utraviolent video games, 500 channels of garbage, all the porn you want on internet...which can make a teenager feel pretty bad if he does not get what he sees...

Most definitely, what has changed is the financial pressure on parents, which has made them quit their job of parenting, and the constant exposure to violence from the media. I agree that weapons availability was a constant, but of course that is part of the problem.

Aurel

Dennis Kalma · Dennis Kalma's Garage

I always watch your debates about guns and the freedom to bear arms with great interest and sadness.

It seems like the interpretation of your constitution, the history of access to firearms to all and the last generation or two's slip in moral values and certainty have landed you guys south of the border in one heck of a mess, I fear it will take generations and many more unneeded deaths before it is solved.

If it is of any comfort, most of the world is in an even bigger mess....I figure the term going to hell in a handbasket is a weak description for all of us.....

Dennis

Vipergrün · 12-09-2007, 05:39 PM

Hmmmm, what has changed.....

1. We are totally bombarded every day with negative news and media that spotlights tragedy and glorifies the people who commit these terrible acts. 24 hours a day on CNN, with detailed coverage every 1/2 hour. I believe we are becoming de-sensitized to events that at one time shocked the general public. Our mantra has become "when", not "if", we hear this all the time. When these tragedies happen, the media should not even mention the name of the person who did it, much less put it on the front page of every magazine and newspaper.

2. "It's not my responsibility", parents blame video games, teachers, classmates, etc. Parents MUST have a part and positive influence in raising their kids. We need to know what our kids are doing, who they hang out with, etc. Too much freedom is given to kids these days.

3. "It's all about me", we have become a very selfish society. As long as we have our McMansions, Beemers, and six figure income, and can score the Wii for junior, all is well. Who cares who you have to screw to get to where you want to be. Watch any TV show and the theme is the same, who can you screw, literally, or figuratively to get to the top.

As far as guns go, in this particular case, I am glad a citizen, who was acting as a security guard at the church was packing. They took out the shooter, probably saving a lot of lives....