Sheriff Joe Arpaio - hero or villain?
 

I say hero. What say you?

hero

Who?

In the running for worlds largest dildo, an ignorant, self righteous, self aggrandizing, misguided, ideologue.

Check out, "American Drug War" and you can see Joe at his finest, Boss Hogg meets Heinrich Himmler.

To me? Neither. He's just a guy doing a good job as far as I know. Seems like we've got to coronate people left and right these days for just doing their job.

Of the things I know about Arapaio, I've got no problem with it. (Mule, insert "PC" indictment here.)

Look, if a person has been convicted in a court of law with due process, then in what way is it "demeaning" or less than acceptable to feed that person a bologna and cheese sandwich for lunch like we all had as kids? How is it wrong for that prisoner to wear whatever prisoner uniforms the person charged with those decisions decides is appropriate?...so long as they all wear the same and certain individuals aren't singled out or the purpose of ridicule? If they are assigned physical labor i.e. road work, etc...what is wrong wit hthat as long as you provide drinking water in the heat and appropriate controls?

I've got no problem with Arapaio.

Actually, most of his incarceration practices don't bother me that much. Listen to the guy talk. That bothered me substantially. I also missed his point on having the only writing material available to the prisoners, a post card with Joe's picture on it and a little blurb about how the prisoners live in tents, while the hounds used to chase escapees live in air conditioned comfort. Is the point of that to smack the prisoner's mom in the mouth too?

Hero for standing up for victims against criminals.

Hero. We need to clone this guy. Yes he is way over the top, but we need more like him just to balance out the ACLU and other bleeding hearts who think that criminals should have it better in prison than on the streets.

Like I said, if Boss Hogg meets Heinrich Himmler is your cup of tea, giddyup, Buttercup!

Im willing to bet that this guy turns out to be a criminal of some sort himself, eventually...

Gee, Mule, one would think that your desire for "law and order" would want more Sheriff Joe's in the world. Green baloney sandwiches and pink clothing? Look up his recivitism figures.

Can't have t both ways, son......

Not a hero, but doing his job very well.

What's your evidence? Don't you think peole have been trying to dig up dirt on him for a while? He's had no trouble getting reelected since 1993.

Now that I've figured out who this guy is....

I agree with how he handles prison. It should not be comfortable. That's the point. Motivate people to not want to come back. Rather than prison being an "environment", he turns it into an uncomfortable, temporary existence. Makes sense to me.

As for the person, he comes across as a shameless self-promoter. I may like what he does, but I don't like him particularly.

I hate to agree with Mule, but this former (and sometimes current) prosecutor agrees: villain. Like Javiart in Les Miserables, justice is supposed to be dispasionate and loyal only to the law. This guy takes pleasure in causing the bad guys unnecessary suffering. While many applaud that, that is not his job. His job is to leep people incarerated safely for the period of their time to serve; not to take pleasure in causing them pain. Like it's some big deal to be able to brag that you spend more money feeding your dogs than you spend feeding your prisoners. When God asks what he did to ease the suffering of the least of these, he's going to be short on answers.

Another factor to consider is that this is a jail, not a prison. Prison is for long-term inmates who have been sentenced to more than a year to serve and therefore have access to facilities like libraries, etc. Jail is for people who are waiting for trial and couldn't make bail, or who are being held for short term. So by definition of this being a county jail, the worst offenders aren't getting punished.

Hey, Legion...no fair agreeing with me!:D

Your point is better made than my point. I know nothing of Arapaio's personality. I'm not sure I've ever heard him speak or even seen a picture of him. If he's a self promoter or a jerk...well...I don't care so long as his policies result in a significant reduction in recidivism and he isn't beating, torturing or killing people.

My thought is, if you did the crime, you do your time - the way the jail is set up whehter you like it or not. Don't like it? Don't come back!

You don't have to be cruel or inhuman to make someone NOT want to ever come back and apparently Arapaio has proven that to a degree.

He's not a villan. If he were, he'd be under charges himself.

Inhumane treatment...no way, Soldiers in Iraq live worse than his prisoners do.

"If you can't do the time, don't do the time" is a good quote from his jail.

MRM, I am honestly sking a question: What makes you say (write) he's causing bad guys unnecessary suffering? I am asking where that accusation comes from? If true, I would be opposed. Their sentence is their sentence and if THAt makes them suffer, well then they shouldn't have done the crime. Tell me you're not saying that wearing things in pink or eating plain, common food is "suffering", are you?

If that IS what you're saying, then let this bleeding heart, pinko, liberal, scum be the first to accuse you of being...well....worse than me!:D

If Arapaio's worst offense is saying stupid things like the dogs eat better than the criminals? Well, I agree its insensitive and doesn't display much in the way of self-preservation skills, but as long as he isn't feeding them actual dog food and the food is not spoiled, etc, then nothing REAL in the way of hardship is happening, right? As for the insensitivity? Well, I guess these thieves, vandals, gangbangers, drunks, etc will somehow just have to weep themsleves to sleep. And my honest hope is they DO, so they won't EVER do something that makes them come back to his jail again.

I couldn't care less if Arpaio takes pleasure in making his prisoners not enjoy their stay. Whether or not he takes pleasure in it has nothing to do with whether that treatment is right or wrong. I'll go out on a limb and say the vast majority of Americans would agree with him, perhaps even more so nowadays, because we're so fed up with prisoners filing frivolous lawsuits, gaining 100 lbs. in the joint or coming out cut like a pro boxer because of the gym. I want prisoners to hate their stay in the joint, be uncomfortable, whine and moan about it and not want to come back. Seems to me Arpaio is accomplishing that well.

Dan, I appreciate that as a serious question. I'm basing my opinion based on what I've read about him. He braggs about feeding prisoners just inside the requirements for food, even though he has enough money to give them decent food. His brag is that he spends more on dog food because it costs more to buy dog food that it does to buy the food he gives humans. The tent city thing isn't because it's cheaper or easier to police, it's because it's more miserable, and it's a more or less short term facility to he can get away with it. It's stuff like that. I'm sure if I looked into him more I could give more and better examples.

Having put people in jail, I think it is important not to take pleasure in it. I certainly took pleasure in a job well done when a bad guy got locked up andI celebrated with victims when their abuses went to jail. usually my only regret was that I couldn't put them away longer. I'm considered a bit of a Nazi by the public defenders up here. But I think that's a lot different than taking pleasure in their suffering. I subscribe to Nietze's theiry that when you look at the beast it looks back at you. it's a short ans slippery slope between taking pleasure in causing unnecessary pain on prisoners and being like the criminals themselves.

Remember, it is not the job of the police or sheriff to punish people. The state legislature passes the punishement, the court imposes the sentence. The local sheriff or state prison is responsible for keeping the prisoner incarcerated. I don't know of any authority for a sheriff to take it upon himself to make things harder on the prisoners just to increase the punishment.

I'm sure most of the people in the country approve. The tyrany of the majority is one reason we have a Constitution. If the conditions in that jail were replicated in a prison, it would be unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment. As a matter of penal theory, the best evidence is that harsher treatment correlates to higher levels of recidivism. So I'm not sure there's any data to suggest the sheriff is accomplishing anything other than causing some unnecessary pain on a bunch of prisoners.

Like I said, lots of people don't see the problem with that.

As a tax payer in Maricopa County I say criminal!

The people of this county end up paying millions of dollars every year to pay off out of court settlements because of him. He continually violates peoples rights. Not criminals just the tax payers that pay his salary!

He has played to the fears of the older voters who get out and vote in Maricopa county for years.

Some how the news cameras seem to be where ever he is most of the day!

Read some of this:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/search/search.php?keywords=arpaio&x=41&y=14

Like I said, world's largest dildo!

Giuliani had the same problem when he cleaned up NYC - lots and lots of $$ paid out to settlements. Does that mean crimefighters abuse the law and their authority or does it mean we live in a super litigious society where everyone thinks they're entitled to a jackpot lotto when the police get tough? And is it Arpaio's fault that the media pay him a lot of attention? Would you be better off if he just quietly went along with everything Amnesty Int'l. or the ACLU wanted? Personally, I think someone who makes those groups hate them is probably doing the right thing.

MORE from the Daily Kitten. http://www.dailykitten.com/chat/topic/1120.
John_AZ

Just some ideas. "Bragging " on that policy is stupid and if you're correct that he really does this? It makes me uncomfortable. The board of prisons or the Mayor or whoever ought to tell him to shut his piehole. So, yes, it does sound like the guy IS a self promoter and I REALLY dislike those guys. But, unfortunately it doesn't mean that his methods don't work. If tent cities are more uncomfortable...for lack of a better term...GOOD. I take no joy (and neither should he) in saying that. The idea is we want people to REALLY not want to ever go back to jail. This sounds like it contributes to that goal.

I tend to agree with you. If you adopt the methods of your enemies perhaps fighting those enemies is a moot point. You have become them. I tend to agree with that more than I disagree.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from but (and correct me if I am wrong) doesn't your state board of prisons or some such have standards by which incarceration facilities are run? If it does and he meets them, then he has violated no standards. If it makes the prisoners really dislike being in jail, isn't that a good thing? Unless of course you are beating, starving them, etc?

I TOTALLY agree with you on the "tyranny of the majority" argument. I really do. But, why if his methods were enacted in prison would they be cruel and unusual? Okay, if it were a prison and more black or hispanics, or Aryans, etc gained easier access to kill each other, then I see an argument. But discounting that aspect for a moment, why would something(s) that is not cruel and unusual in jail be judged so in a prison setting? I am honestly asking for your thoughts on that.

First, what's the "pain"? Sweating in tents? Disliking bolgna sandwiches? Wearing pink clothes? I mean, really. If there are other things I'd like to hear what they are, but those things sounds strictly like thigs meant to encourage bad guys not to come back to jail. Second, the penal theory thing - Really? is that factually true? I understand the harsher treatment pi$$ing a person off and making them meaner, so they act out and get sent to prison again. I "get" that argument if that's what behind the penal theory. I don't get it for any other reason. I am a law abiding regular guy so maybe I don't relate but if I go to prison I'm not going to want to go back no matter how good they treat me. And I am ESPECIALLY not going to want to go back if I hated the safe, legal, but otherwise uncomfortable, unappetizing-as-hell conditions there.

The way it turns out is that incarceration itself is the deterent. More bad stuff that happens inside beyond the incarceration doesn't affect recidivism rates. If anything there is a correlation with an increase in recidivism.

The county jail is a short term facility for petty criminals and for people waiting for trial but who can't make bail. The real bad guys aren't in the county lockup so the sheriff really isn't punishing the people you want him to. The people at the local county jail will be DWIs, driving after suspension, vagrants, people working off traffic fines, things like that. There are constitutional requirements for longer term facilities that don't apply to short term facilities. The longer the term the facility the more recreation and things are needed to avoid cruel and unusual punishment. That's how he can get away ith tent cities and the like.

Yes, he does brag that he feeds his dogs better than the inmates and the dogs sleep in air conditioned houses while the inmates sleep in the desert heat. Considering the never ending supply of people to throw in this county jail, it doesn't seem that the conditions are much of a deterent. Without some obvious benefit to humiliating inmates purposely and feeding them the most unapatizing food that will keep them alive, I worry that he's not doing it for any good reason and he's just a sadist masquerading as a law enforcement office and that he might start looking for people to lock up to feed his ego if he doesn't have enough people to do it to legally. That's why conservatives don't trust big government or anyone in authority who has too much power.

In the end, though, how prisoners are treated shouldn't be about who they are. How we treat them is about what we are.

MRM..

You do not seem to grasp the philosophy that surrounds the idea of being found guilty of an antisocial act.

I do not believe in "cruel and unusual" forms of punishment either, but Joe stays within the limits. His inmates are not beaten, "waterboarded", but are fed baloney, sleep in tents and wear pink and are forced (imagine that) to WORK!! Except for the wearing of pink, sleeping in tents and eating baloney sandwiches is recreational to lots of folks who enjoy camping and hiking.

Yes.....in our society people can even indict a ham sandwich. And will, given the chance. There are aways those practicioners of law out to make a buck off the "system"

What are the alternatives to incarceration? What are the actual numbers of specific crimes that find folks under Sheriff Joe's supervision? Seems there are more suppositions made re: the severity of crime than proven. I do not know the details, only that there are probably some waiting for trial that should be considered dangerous.

As to recidivism...Is there a study somewhere that would show the correlation betwen the severity of punishment and recivism? I really am curious about that. The "never ending supply of people".....Hey...Phoenix is a BIG City and is a prime destination for border crossers......Would that be a factor?

I truly cannot understand how a true conservative would be against a strong system that deals with crime and criminals. I would have expected that kind of reaction from the true bleeding heart "liberal"!!

I can't vote in Arizona. I can't help but hope you vote for Sheriff there. As far as I know, sheriff is the only ELECTED law enforcement officer. All others are appointed.

Hooray for Joe. Treat criminals like...criminals.

Can we vote for him to become potus?

Funny that more people who live in Maricopa County (Joes kingdom) have not chimed up here. BTW, he was with the DEA for something like 30+ years and was known as something of a nut case there.

First, I totally agree with the way he treats prisoners. This is not a country club, make them wear pink and feed them the daily minimum to make them not want to return.

He has a "Deadbeat Dads" session every Christmas. The day before Christmas his guys go out and find as many Fathers that they can find who are not paying their child support, and throw them in jail for Christmas. He says that if you are not going to support your child that you do not deserve to have a holiday. Agree totally!

He banned smoking at the jails. Banned all television other than the Weather Channel and things like the Disney Channel and so on. That way they know how hot its going to be in "tent city" the next day, and Disney reminds them of their kids, who are without their Fathers, and that type of programming settles them down.

The downside is that the jerk is a criminal right now. He has been caught in several situations where he took money from someone to let their friends or family get into the "good cells" with A/C and not in "tent city" which is hell during the summer. He will be removed from office someday and while his treatment of inmates is televised all around the world, Arpaio's true colors have come out several times.

Another recent issue was his allowing his deputys to stage a sting targeting hookers. Problem was that he allowed the deputys to have sex with the ladies THEN arrest them, which is illegal. They arrested almost 100 of ladies, and the court cases of more than half of them was thrown out due to the illegal behavour of the deputys. More wasting of public funds...

One newspaper in Phoenix ran a story recently about a Grand Jury. It involved Joe Arpaio and he did not like it. Arpaio had the publisher and editor arrested and they spent the night in jail. Finally when cooler minds (read the rest of the legal system in Phoenix) woke up they were released but this is the way he works, by intimidation and illegal dealings. It will bite him on the a$$ eventually.

He has numerous lawsuits that have been settled for inmates who were beaten to death while in custody. His treatment in some areas is simply criminal, yet enough people have supported his other actions so far to keep him getting elected. Funny thing is that he is currently under legal action that is trying to get him recalled along with the Phoenix city atty for "Disobeying and violating the United States Constitution and abuse of power" and so far it looks like it may make it on the ballot in 2008.

Still I do like the way he treats criminals... as criminals. Many days I drive out of my house and see his "chain gang" cleaning the road on the way to the airport. They should do things like this everywhere...

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Well hey, if they didn't want to get beat to death, they shoulda paid those traffic fines. All you have to do is listen to this guy talk.

being a taxpayer of the county, a native, a CCW holder for quite some time, i agree with shurf joes incarceration program. i agree with his immigration program.

knowing all too wll how the system works with my older son, i feel what hes doing is good for the county in general. jail aint supposed to be a country club. if yer sentanced to 366 days you go to the joint and thats a whole 'nuther league run by AZDOC az dept of corrections.

the tent city jail is for 365 days and less. and it is HELL ON EARTH in the summer. kinda think back to the 1800's and the YUMA PRISON.

having played football @ brophy college prep here, with dave hendershott #2 and larry black #3 under joe, i kinda know who they are. a close friend of mines dad and joe are childhood pals and still hang together. i also know that btwn san diego and phx. you are NOT going to get a jury of your peers. you are going to get elderly voters,retired military, as your jury. towns like carefree and sun city vote heavy and vote for joe. they dont like crime. who does? the chances of you or anyone walking away from a crime, scott free even with mega buck lawyer are very very very SLIM! soooooooooooo............alot of first offenders no matter who they are, get jail time, which obviously adds to population of jails and a bigger budget. which joe is over budget right now.

the illegal alien problem here is beyond belief. and he has taken the bull by the horns and done something. i dont agree with everything, but by and large i think hes doing a good job with what he has to work with. the alien problem in cave creek/carefree has been taken care of big time. crime is down across the board. racial profile? you bet! if you are not a citizen you better have a "green card" and im just fine with that.

do i see him being voted out.........yes he is getting up in years. and with any elected official you only get so many runs at the poll. do i agree with everything he does??? no, but i doubt i would agree on every item eye to eye with any elected official. and being the sheriff anywhere IS A HIGH PROFILE POSITION, and then add stupid criminals and you get goofier than SH!! headlines every stinking day. and as the shurf you get to deal with it as you see fit or can afford.

need a job???????? MCSO is hiring! and will continue to hire for along time to come. or until criminals figure this is a really bad place to break the law. would i want his job? hell no! you cant pay me enough to deal with that kind of crap.

by the way...........maricopa county is the LARGEST COUNTY IN THE U.S.! and I LIKE CHAIN GANGS! especially FEMALE CHAIN GANGS! always fun watching that action!

after my CRIME SPREE when i was 18 and ditched a U. of A. cop(same as DPS) on my dirt bike, i swore i was NEVER GOING BACK TO JAIL and THEY WOULD NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE! well im 50 now and shurf joe has REINFORCED THE FACT that i will never ride my dirt bike at 2am on the streets of arizona.....drunk! EVER!