Patriotism vs. Nationalism

[Rick Lee]

Ok, Dottore's mention of this in the church shooting thread elicited some opinions. I think there is a HUGE difference between patriotism and nationalism. I read a great article in the Atlantic Monthly about 16 yrs. ago by Prof. John Mearsheimer that mentioned a lot about this. Article's title was "Why We Will Soon Miss the Cold War." His claim was that patriotism, aka love of one's country is fine. But that nationalisim, or even hyper-nationalism, i.e. believing other nationalities are both inferior and indeed threatening, is a major cause of world conflict. At the time I read this article I was living in Germany and working in the Bayer factory with almost no Germans. My co-workers were Serbs, Egyptians, Kosovar-Albanians, Turks, etc. While I was employed there the war in Yugoslavia started and some of my co-workers actually took vacation time to go home and fight. The bosses had to redo our shifts so the Serbs were not working with any of the Muslims. The hatred there was amazing.

These guys weren't even living in their native countries, were making super good money in a very rich, liberal, tolerant democracy and brought their historical and cultrural grudges with them. Now, that's what I call nationalism. Likewise, one of my Chinese exes (from Nanjing) hated Japanese people like Palestineans hate Israelis. I mean she couldn't be in the same room with them and started getting upset when she saw one walk into a restaurant we were dining in. That's what I call a historical grudge dressed up in nationalism.

When I see the American flag and all the July 4th festivities, the old guys with the veterans hats on, that's what I call patriotism. It's a threat to no one. In fact, I think the U.S. is the only country in the world that, as a nation, holds no historical grudges. Maybe it's because we haven't had a shooting war on our own territory in anyone's memory. Maybe it's because we are a nation of immigrants and a very young one at that. Doesn't matter. Our patriotism is benign. I don't much care for displays of the flag on clothing or beach towels. I used to not think too much about it at all. But having traveled to a LOT of places considerably worse off than anywhere in the U.S., I do tend to get that warm fuzzy feeling inside when I come across a U.S. embassy somewhere or arrive back home after an overseas trip and see the flag as I'm heading into U.S. Customs.

[frogger]

Ok

[Tobra]

Good post.

Seems like people get more worked up about religion than country, which is why the peace lovers are going to be more of a problem than some will admit. Common enemy will do a lot to unify a people, a great Truth, if you ask me.

[frogger]

Kill for peace.

[Mule]

Is there a better reason?

[frogger]

Kill for sport?

[frogger]

Kill for resources?

[Christien]

Rick, I think that's a really insightful post, and you draw a really good line between benign patriotism and potential damaging nationalism. I would further add that patriotism turns to nationalism when 1. a person becomes blind to the problems with their own society and fails to tolerate rational dissent, even discussion about those problems and 2. becomes blind to the good (perhaps better) portions of other societies and fails to tolerate dissent/discussion about those good points. Basically, when it goes from pride to dogma.

I think by that definition there are many people in the USA right now that are leaning dangerously close to nationalism, and your president is leading that movement.

I disagree that the US holds no historical grudges. The recent thread here on OT about Hiroshima/Pearl Harbour pointed out many long-standing grudges towards the Japanese, though it would seem those grudges will die out with that generation that fought in WWII. But imagine how much stronger this sentiment must have been when these now-senior citizens were still working, holding positions of power, etc.

I also think there's a strong anti-Muslim sentiment in the USA right now, which, even though it's very recent history, I would also label as a historical grudge, especially considering that it doesn't look to be dissipating any time soon. Certainly it has all the same aspects of a grudge. And ignoring whatever we may believe about Saddam, Iraq, WMD, conspiracy theories, etc. there's been no act of violence or aggression (or even a credible, serious threat of violence or aggression) enacted against the USA (on their own turf) in over 6 years now.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by frogger

Kill for resources?

shhh! don't tell anyone

In fact, Shaun's reference to freedom fries was a great example of nationalism. That has always been with us in this country, but imho that rhetoric has ratcheted up in the last few years. The whole "you're either with us or against us" isn't patriotic to me, but nationalistic. But ymmv.

[legion]

JFK and FDR were far more nationalistic than any presidents since.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by nostatic

shhh! don't tell anyone

In fact, Shaun's reference to freedom fries was a great example of nationalism. That has always been with us in this country, but imho that rhetoric has ratcheted up in the last few years. The whole "you're either with us or against us" isn't patriotic to me, but nationalistic. But ymmv.

No, Shaun's reference was an example of Congressional pandering by a bunch of blowhards who couldn't get real jobs. It has nothing to do with nationalism or patriotism. Kinda ironic that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.

[nostatic]

patriotism vs. nationalism just depends which side of the gun you're on...

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by nostatic

patriotism vs. nationalism just depends which side of the gun you're on...

That's the truth.

Good post Rick Lee.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

No, Shaun's reference was an example of Congressional pandering by a bunch of blowhards who couldn't get real jobs. It has nothing to do with nationalism or patriotism. Kinda ironic that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.

It did sting a little to learn that our long-time ally abandoned us because of Saddam's Oil for Food bribes. All is forgiven now that Sarko was elected.

Patriotism and nationalism are offensive to the multiculturalists because it assumes that some countries (and civilizations) are better than others. Which they are, of course.

[Dottore]

I think your analyses misses a couple of things.

US patriotism is not always that benign. Bertrand Russell put this point most succinctly in the quotes I posted yesterday. "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

Any and all military adventurism abroad by US troops for example is sold at home as having something to do with patriotism. People wave flags and "support our troops" etc and don't stop to think about the underlying issues.

This kind of blind, unthinking patriotism is never a positive force. We live in a global community, and patriotism which, in Shaw's words promotes the conviction that "your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it" - is childish and unhelpful and even a threat to the fabric of a truly global community.

Just one example: when I hear one of your leaders say "God bless America" I always cringe. Do they really think god thinks in terms of real estate? Do they really think God will bless Americans and not, say - the Swedes? Or is it just an idiotic patriotic incantation designed to make the listener feel they live in a nation particularly blessed by god?

Whatever - but this kind of patriotism is not benign.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

No, Shaun's reference was an example of Congressional pandering by a bunch of blowhards who couldn't get real jobs. It has nothing to do with nationalism or patriotism. Kinda ironic that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.

More shuck and jive from the master. What's the definition of "is" Rick?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by nostatic

patriotism vs. nationalism just depends which side of the gun you're on...

Give some examples. I strongly disagree. Is being on the wrong end of Israel's gun what makes the Palestineans a cohesive, patriotic nation-state? How would that change if Israel disappeared tomorrow? Who would China blame if Japan disappeared tomorrow? Which scapegoat would they look for next? Do you think Russians hated Germans any less when they occupied East Germany for 45 yrs.? I've met plenty of WWII-era Americans who could barely hide their hate for the Japanese. But none came close to the venom and vitriol spewed by my ex, even toward Japanese born long after the war.

The which-side-of-the-gun-you're-on line reminds me of Churchill's quip about Germany - "The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet." Yet, I don't detect much of a historical grudge in any Germans I know, even those who fought in WWII and even the few I've known who made it through Soviet captivity.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Dottore

This kind of blind, unthinking patriotism is never a positive force. We live in a global community, and patriotism which, in Shaw's words promotes the conviction that "your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it" - is childish and unhelpful and even a threat to the fabric of a truly global community.

As opposed to the drivel that is pushed down our throats that America is the worst because it is inhabited by white males?

We do not live in a "global community". We live in a world where other countries actively try to destroy the U.S. for their own gain.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Christien

Rick, I think that's a really insightful post, and you draw a really good line between benign patriotism and potential damaging nationalism. I would further add that patriotism turns to nationalism when 1. a person becomes blind to the problems with their own society and fails to tolerate rational dissent, even discussion about those problems and 2. becomes blind to the good (perhaps better) portions of other societies and fails to tolerate dissent/discussion about those good points. Basically, when it goes from pride to dogma.

I think by that definition there are many people in the USA right now that are leaning dangerously close to nationalism, and your president is leading that movement.

+ 100

You have put here much more succinctly part of what I had in mind with my previous post.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Give some examples. I strongly disagree.

Why would Todd give examples? You won't believe them. You're right Rick, you're always right and nothing anyone posts here will ever change your mind.