Again, I appreciate the input. If you were going to spend $1000-$2000 on a watch, what would it be? Should one spend less? More? I ask this within the context of satisfactory performance, style, and craftsmanship, and the average man's income.

I have never seen a Rolex ad, that I can remember anyway. I would think it's one of those things that doesn't need advertising - again like Porsche. Can't remember ever seeing a TV ad for a 911.

Funny......this Rolex thing is becoming to be entertaining. It is similar to Mercedez Benz.

1. M.Benz is a also a status symbol.
2. M.Benz used to make trash trucks, and they extended to become something else.

And Porsche made tractors and designed for Mercedes.

I think I can admit that it's a little bit about status. But, it's also about buying wisely. That doesn't necessarily mean buying "the best". So far it seems that a Rolex will A-last, and B-hold it's value. Add the status factor as a bonus. I can live with that.

Btw-here's another Panerai. I like it. Don't know a damn thing about it, but I like it.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...Mstraps099.jpg

Try driving on 101 around Agoura Hills, Westlake Village, Calabasas areas (aka, the Conejo Valley). Also, around Diamond Bar and Walnut. You will see more than 6 Rolex billboards. Yes they do need advertising.

I also do see Porsche TV ads. Lately I don't watch TV much. (I use my TIVO to record Justice League Unlimited, Batman, and The Batman).

Now I understand the "24" dub statement. I liked the Panerai until I saw it in scale.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2403/picturelr7.jpg

:eek:

Starting to get off the original topic, but here's two more I'm considering. Not Rolex obviously-

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9...llsize2jc4.jpg

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4...lsize2aia9.jpg

Anyone familiar with these?

I would not.

Go with your original plan and buy the Rollie. You will never regret it. SmileWavy

These Ball watches are are low end (not low quality) swiss quality watches (about the same as the high end Victoinox watches) that are assembled in Switerland. The original Ball Watch company was American and went out of business in 1969. It's founder helped set the standards for U.S. railroad watches and their regulation. The name was bought up, and the new owners are trading on it's history in the U.S. It is not a bad watch, but I would not pay more than $1500 for any of their models. Their only unique feature is small tubes of tritium gas for night illumination.

What do people think about Sinn?

I really like them. Herman Sinn was a Luftwaffe pilot, and the instrument quality shows in most of hs watches. German cases, Swiss Lemania and Valjour movements. Still kick my self for selling this one...loved it, and its tripled in price sicne I sold it (as have most Sinns. The former head of Breitling took over Sinn and has pushed the prcies up significantly.) got one for the SO too.

http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/ca...994_detail.jpg

Actually, I think RPKESQ has led you guys down the primrose path. A masterly piece of writing. Sounds scholarly. Problem is, most of it is misleading. Let's discuss a few of his salient points. I won't talk about all of them, 'cause I type too slow and I'm getting hungry.

Let's talk about marketing in the watch business. Hans Wildorf, essentially the founder of Rolex, made his mark in the watch world in many ways. What seperated him from the rest of the herd was his marketing skills. When Rolex was founded, nobody in the watch and clock business did a good job of selling their products. Hans changed that, by having better business skills than his competitors. The marketing of a Rolex watch isn't something that is only recent. It has been a core part of their business philosophy since the beginning. To sy that it is something they have done in the last 25 years just tells me he knows squat about the company.

Rolex does have a modern factory, with much automation. In fact, their factory is a marvel of modern engineering. However, all of their watches are still assembled by hand. The machines do the things that machines do best. People do the rest. As to the nunber of watchmakers employed by Rolex being the lowest of all major watch companies, that is essentially 100% French cow poo. Don't trust either one of us; do the research yourself. The information is out there.

Our buddy from France makes many statements about "firsts." Some are correct, some are demonstrably false, the others are irrelevant. Let's see...

As for their technical achievments, let me say this. Rolex has hundreds of patents, for every part of a watch and the tools to make and service them. They work to improve what they make. They don't make complicated watches. Others do. So what? If you want a minute repeater, go buy one. I think it's a useless affectation but, if that's what floats your boat, go for it. A tourbillion is technically interesting but doesn't help me out here in the real world. It should make a watch more accurate but I have several cheap, poorly made Rolexes whose rate results in my daily wearing are better than what typically is achieved by the tourbillion watches you can buy. Go figure. You want to buy the most complicated watches ever made? Good luck. If you have more cash available than P. Stern, maybe you'll succeed. You need a watch that is waterproof below 4,000 feet? Gee, sorry, Rolex can't help you. Such a shame, too. I'm sure the wife was really looking forward to diving the wrecks this winter.

I have an example of the famous watch that was worn in space. Not the modern copies that are sold by the thousands but the same model of watch from the 1960's. Same case, same movement. Pretty mint condition too. It's worth a decent amount of money. Too bad that the last time I pulled it out of the safe the ****er wouldn't even run. Can't say I've ever had that problem with a Rolex. Maybe it would run better if I could hitch a ride on the next shuttle launch. It's probably just pissed at me for never taking it to the moon.

Look up the website for Watchtime magazine. Finds the archives and do a search on Rolex. Read the articles that talk about their production methods. Read the comparison tests between Rolex watches and their competitors. Visit the Rolex website and watch the short films. Learn about the steel thay have chosen to use. Learn about the alloy of rose gold they have developed. Watch a damn robot polish a case. Drink a beer or two.

Rolex chooses not to decorate their movements, or show them off. Big stinking deal. I have never seen the movement of my Patek Phillipe, nor will I. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside that the reason that watch cost me so much money was because it is so finely decorated where I'll never look. That's value, gents. Would I have been happier to pay half as much and skip the polishing of the screw heads? Yep. Wait, you say, surely the Patek runs better than the Rolex? That's what all of the detail work should yield, right? That's why they do it. Sorry to disappoint you, but no, it doesn't run as well. Maybe I got a bad one.

My Vacheron Constantin is a lovely piece of work. Ultra slim, beautiful rose gold, feels nice when I wind it. Err, except that one time when the winding stem came out....Can't blame it on anybody but the highly trained watchmaker that built it. Bought it new and it's not old enough for its first service yet. Oh well.

I need a new band for a Jaeger. Can't seem to get the SOB's to send me the correct one. Can't blame them really. They make so many different watches and the model number and serial number I give them sounds so much like all the others, no wonder they keep getting it wrong. I'll keep trying.

I think I'll quit now. I encourage anybody with an interest in watches to read a few books, subscribe to a few magazines to keep current on new things, buy a bunch of watches and wear them and quit harping about things you don't like.

If you think somebody makes a watch more suited to your needs than Rolex, go buy the god forsaken thing. I'm going to go make some huevos rancheros for breakfast.

JR

Gat a Panerai ...can't go wrong
 

http://www.paneristi.com/reference/vintage.html

Read about the History
http://www.thewatchquote.com/The-Officine-Panerai-Saga-No_133.htm

www.paneristi.com
I have 5 of them ...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1198420338.jpg

Aux contraire! Not the Primrose path, just a glimpse of a different path. The whole reason I started the thread was to learn. Not to learn about Rolex or watches, but to learn "how to learn" about Rolex and other watches. I respect the opinions and knowledge of the Pelican community and of all who have specifically contributed to this thread. Frankly, a few days ago I didn't even know where to begin. Now, I have a pretty good idea where to get a basic education on watches in general and I at least know some of the questions to ask. Now I'll spend some of my limited time learning about yet another thing that I shouldn't be wasting my time on. It will be added to the list of non-essentials such as Porsche 911s, old Honda motorcycles, sailboats, firearms, antiques, antique Chinese furniture, Lalique crystal (more my wife), astronomy, etc., etc., etc.

I think the biggest problem Rolex has in forums like this (and the public in general) is their reputation exceeds the reality even though the reality is still very good. Ask "Joe Average" on the street what the best (also generally synonamous with most expensive) watch is and I'll wager at least 9 out of 10 will say "Rolex".

That said - I have gathered enough info to know that Rolex still brings what I need to the table. They're durable, hold their value, and have style. That's what I'm looking for. That's what I will buy. FWIW - The opinions and experiences here have helped me immensely. When I posted this, I knew little of the Airking and it's value. I was willing to spend $2k, but have found that I can get into an Airking, the watch I still want, for significantly less.

Thanks again!SmileWavy

Enjoy your Airking, it is the key to a very facinating hobby.

Firearms, Antiques and Antique Chinese Furniture? You are not into early 20th century Chinese scrolls and pre-1600 Japanese swords too are you? We should really meet up in person.

Primrose path? Methinks you doth protest too much.

The initial questions posed on the thread indicated a lack of in-depth knowledge concerning mechanical watches. I attempted to show some of the depth and scope of the Swiss mechanical watch arena. I’ll state that since I have lived in Switzerland, visited several Basal Fairs, spent time in almost all the major manufactories, visited over a 2 weeks last year alone in Bienne and roamed the factories of both of the Swiss giants, Rolex and Omega, I have more first hand knowledge than most. I was attempting to enlighten in regards to the almost default decision of going Rolex. If you think Rolex is the best, go for it. I have no vested interest in how you spend your money; or how you want to “show that you achieved “some level status or success (by all means put 20” chrome rims on your Porsche)

But another means of enjoying what is, in fact, a total anachronism (after all, if knowing the time is the stated goal, quartz and cell technology trumps mechanical every time, some don’t even need batteries) then realizing that Rolex has built it’s commercial standing in the last 30 years by learning to do the highest level of exterior presentation with the least amount of handwork and creativity. This fact might lead one to appreciate the amazing level of innovation, creative zest, hand work, uniqueness, vision and downright brilliance that other watch makers bring to the table. If you want to really learn about things, instead of learning dogma that is.

Interior finish is very important. How is your Porsche engine finished internally? Do you not enjoy seeing a finely made part? Is that not some of the enjoyment we obtain from our cars? I know I greatly enjoy seeing and feeling the fit and finish of beautifully crafted objects. It is the premier sign of proper hand craftsmanship, whether you look at it or not.

No watch is "waterproof", but higher levels of pressure indicate the amount of misuse, lack of care, exposure to solvents, etc., and still be able to keep dirt and moisture out. After all if you only drive 70mph why buy a car cabable of 190mph? Really have you thought any of this out?

Your comments about my understanding of Rolex are demonstrably incorrect. Rolex uses automation to assemble most of the watches. Just look at the production figures, they produce more than any other mechanical Swiss maker (by several orders of magnitude, yet have the fewest certified watch makers by percentage of production (this information can be verified by Swiss employment figures, look it up). How in hell do you think that works if they are hand building them? As far as having high number of patents, try comparing that number to several other Swiss and German manufactories’ number of patents (oh dear, more real research instead of dogma). Big hint number one. Most of Rolex’s patents (over 85% in the last 30 years) are concerning automated production. Did you know that? And no, it is not on their web site! Humorous comments about how seemingly every other watch you own has let you down except for the almighty Rolex smacks of Rolex dogma.

Your advice is more of the same, “Look up the website for Watchtime magazine. Finds the archives and do a search on Rolex. Read the articles that talk about their production methods. Read the comparison tests between Rolex watches and their competitors. Visit the Rolex website and watch the short films. Learn about the steel thay have chosen to use. Learn about the alloy of rose gold they have developed. Watch a damn robot polish a case”.

How about really doing the same for other brands? Or is the Rolex dogma you’ve bought into completely eliminated the ability to do real research? How about following your own advice? “I encourage anybody with an interest in watches to read a few books, subscribe to a few magazines to keep current on new things”. If you did this, instead of sucking beers while watching Rolex propaganda, you too, might learn something. How about suggesting:

The Swiss Watchmaking Year (annual)
International Watch
Chronos (not the best, but sometimes interesting)
Horology.com (a wealth of information)

There are numerous other sources, just put on your thinking cap and really look at the world out there.

In conclusion, Rolex has achieved the highest level of commercial success by developing the highest level of automated production and finishing of any Swiss mechanical watch producer, combined with the largest advertising budget. They have maximized their profits at the expense of variety, creativity and hand craftsmanship. They have managed to do exactly what most here complain that Porsche did after the 993.

Bob,

If you want to learn a litle more about Rolex watches, I can recommend the book by James Dowling that describes their history in some detail. It's called Rolex: The Best of Time and is in its second edition.

Watchtime magazine gave out a special issues to subscribers last year that was essentially a compliation of all of the major articles they have written about Rolex watches in the last few years. You may be able to get a back issue from them. Failing that, they archive their articles on their website.

JR

Well, sooner or later everybody seems to get sucked into an internet argument. What fun. For those of you with stale popcorn, feel free to skip this post.

RPKESQ, your comments are in quotes. We begin...

"If you think Rolex is the best, go for it."


Actually, I don't think they are the best, nor did I ever state that in any of my posts. That wasn't my point. In fact, I own more watches made by other manufacturers than Rolex.


"I have no vested interest in how you spend your money; or how you want to “show that you achieved “some level status or success (by all means put 20” chrome rims on your Porsche)"


I don't feel a need to show anybody my status. See anything at the bottom of my posts indicating to other what cars I own? Compare that to other signatures on this board. For the record, every car I own has stock wheels.


"If you want to really learn about things, instead of learning dogma that is."

You presume a lot here. Ever met me?


"Interior finish is very important. How is your Porsche engine finished internally?"

Well, none of my Porsche engines are finished at all internally, apart from the bearing surfaces. They're full of casting flash, unmachined surfaces and other ugly sights. Come visit me sometime, I'll show you one. I have several apart at the moment.


"Do you not enjoy seeing a finely made part? Is that not some of the enjoyment we obtain from our cars? I know I greatly enjoy seeing and feeling the fit and finish of beautifully crafted objects. It is the premier sign of proper hand craftsmanship, whether you look at it or not."


That was my point about the Patek. Can't see a thing....I'm sure it's nice though...


"No watch is "waterproof", but higher levels of pressure indicate the amount of misuse, lack of care, exposure to solvents, etc., and still be able to keep dirt and moisture out. After all if you only drive 70mph why buy a car cabable of 190mph? Really have you thought any of this out?"

Sure. Given my engineering background, that's easy. Next question, please.


"Your comments about my understanding of Rolex are demonstrably incorrect. Rolex uses automation to assemble most of the watches. Just look at the production figures, they produce more than any other mechanical Swiss maker (by several orders of magnitude, yet have the fewest certified watch makers by percentage of production (this information can be verified by Swiss employment figures, look it up). How in hell do you think that works if they are hand building them?"

My problem with your comments about Rolex stem from the fact that you are stating some things that aren't true. Other things you say are misleading to people that are new to watches. I won't argue that many other manufacturers produce fewer watches per employee each year. I also understand that Rolex dosn't do much hand finishing or cosmetic decoration on the parts they don't show us. Again, that's not the business they are in and that doesn't mean the watches are better or worse, except to watch snobs.

Rolex employs 6,000 people. I suppose they are all writing ad copy.


"As far as having high number of patents, try comparing that number to several other Swiss and German manufactories’ number of patents (oh dear, more real research instead of dogma). Big hint number one. Most of Rolex’s patents (over 85% in the last 30 years) are concerning automated production. Did you know that?

No they are not mostly about automation. Yes, I have a list of them. Send me postage and I'll mail you a copy. I am also aware of the innovations made by other companies but that wasn't germane to the discussion at hand. Start another thread if you want to talk about them.


"And no, it is not on their web site! Humorous comments about how seemingly every other watch you own has let you down except for the almighty Rolex smacks of Rolex dogma."


Glad you got the humour. Just pointing out that having a prestigious name in the watch biz is by no means a guarantee of quality. And yes, none of my Rolexes have ever screwed up. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe that's relevant to Bob's quest for advice.


"How about really doing the same for other brands? Or is the Rolex dogma you’ve bought into completely eliminated the ability to do real research? How about following your own advice? “I encourage anybody with an interest in watches to read a few books, subscribe to a few magazines to keep current on new things”. If you did this, instead of sucking beers while watching Rolex propaganda, you too, might learn something. How about suggesting:
The Swiss Watchmaking Year (annual)
International Watch
Chronos (not the best, but sometimes interesting)
Horology.com (a wealth of information)"


I have in excess of 4,000 books in my library, and untold thousands of magazines. Yes, I have read them. You might say I'm well informed on many subjects, although an expert in only one or two. (Not watches, by the way.) I have bought every significant book available in this country on watches, for the last thirty years. The magazines too, inluding some you don't mention. I get the free in-house one that some of the manufacturers offer to their customers. I collect watch brochures. I surf the usual watch-geek forums, too. Did I miss anything?


"In conclusion, Rolex has achieved the highest level of commercial success by developing the highest level of automated production and finishing of any Swiss mechanical watch producer, combined with the largest advertising budget. They have maximized their profits at the expense of variety, creativity and hand craftsmanship. They have managed to do exactly what most here complain that Porsche did after the 993."


Ah, more of your opinions. Well, if you are old enough, you'll remember that the 356 owners thought the new 911 was a crap car when it was introduced. Sorry if the air-cooled crowd hates the waterpumpers when they go flying past....Anyway, maybe what makes Rolex the big boy of the watch world is that they give people what they want. Right, wrong or indifferent, that's what makes a company a success. They are a business, you know.

Bob, get the Airking. It is a good solid watch that will hold its value over time.

Rolex as a brand is second to none in the watch world. They do not make the best watches in the world but they make watches that the market loves and buys. When you choose to get deeper into this hobby, you will discover other boutique exotics that may sitr your passion as I have.

I actually find Rolex a little bit dull as a timepiece. But, I am a business guy and I look at Rolex as an entire package and could not help but admire what they have done as a business and brand, that is one big reason why I have one on my wrist most of the time. To remind me of some great business lessons I learnt from them and my mother.

Dogma schmogma.

This is actually the decisive point for me. My Rolex has never let me down. And every watch I had before the Rolex - including some equally expensive ones - always failed in one way or another.

I used to do a lot of ocean sailing for a few years for example - and that's one of the most punishing environments for a watch. The Rolex was always utterly reliable in this environment. Others were not.

I think that if you lead an active life, and want just one watch that is seriously robust and elegant enough to wear out on any occasion - well Rolex occupies that market niche very nicely and there really isn't much else around that can touch it.

The parallels to the Porsche brand here very strong. "Robust, sporty, all purpose and still elegant" etc.

And I don't know anyone who has ever regretted buying their Rolex - unlike other brands which are not as timeless (if you'll pardon the pun). And once you have it, you tend to become passionate about it and lose interest in other watches. Sound familiar?

I should talk about the lessons

From Mom
Buy assets not expenses.

When I turned 16 my mom gave me a pawn shop Rolex she picked up for $500, I turned that gift down and opted for a $300 designer bling bling watch for $300. She made the swap with some disappointment in my immaturity but told me that what I choose was an expense that will be worth nothing in a year, the Rolex is an asset that holds its value and appreciates over time. It took me about a decade to learn that one.

Lessons from Rolex:
Build a brand that consumers love and buy.
Manage your channel well.
Do not compete on Price.
Innovate to increase revenue or decrease cost, not just for innovation sake.
Perception is reality in the marketplace.