Who will pay for the sin of murdering the unborn?

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by Rearden

It must be extremely difficult emotionally to terminate your own unborn baby.

Yes it is.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by 72doug2,2

Kurt, my thinking on the matter is I will support any abortion that allows the life of the child to develop fully to the age when he or she can be adopted.

I think I understand what you are saying although your syntax is unclear. Edit - after rereading it seems you are saying, in a round-a-bout way, you support no abortions.

So, even if the Mother's life was in serious danger according to the doctors and it was determined the baby would be fine, the birth must go on at the risk of the mother's life?

FWIW, I would guess that there are many Mom's who would probably risk their lives to have a healthy baby survive them.

I know my question is hypothetical, but so is much of this discussion!

Best,

Kurt

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by dd74

The Christian right and Catholic religious leaders who are so vocal about the subject help with much of the perception that abortion is a religious issue. I know some non-religious people who are against abortion: they fixate more on the murder aspect of a human life than anything related to sin, God or the bible. As well, they're easier to listen to when discussing the subject.

DD- couple things...

You think the far other side is any easier to listen to? Geesh, have you seen some of the posts?

Otherwise, I think I agree with what you're saying.

But, my point is, too many here are making this a religious-only issue. If non-religious people are anti-abortion (which we all know is true), then this religious argument is bonk - at least to them.

- Skip

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

...
Dominate and oppress women; keeping them barefoot, pregnant, out of the workfoce, and remove their suffrage.

Turn the United States into some radical theocracy, with Sharia law (or some Christian equivelent) ruling the nation.

See millions of unwanted children starving and suffering just so I can be "right".

Play God, invoking my will and influence in every aspect of others' lives.

And the most outlandish claim of all - "...they don't really care about the children at all; it's all about control and domination..."
...

This is what confuses me. I wonder how many people, after getting to know me, would still believe this kind of stuff. Same goes for all the poison people say about Christians in general.

It all kinda pi$$es me off.

- Skip

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Nothing you mention has one whit to do with abortion.

Therefore, the decisions I would make under any of those other conditions do not have anything to do with my stance on abortion. Not a thing.

Because I believe in the sanctity of human life, and value it above anything else...

Man, I had to delete a lot more crap this time.

What is abortion other than ending a life? Forget the reasons, forget the rationale, forget the consequences, forget the sanctimonious BS. Give it to me simply please. I get lost wading through your mire.

What are those decisions anyway? You are obviously avoiding answering anything that even remotely defines your stand. I can't tell if you actually believe in the sanctity of life or not.

Again, more simply this time...What is your stand on birth control that happens after fertilization? What is your stand on abortion? All, some or none? No more Rope-A-Dope. C'Mon, throw me a frikken bone here.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by 72doug2,2S

Kurt, my thinking on the matter is I will support any abortion that allows the life of the child to develop fully to the age when he or she can be adopted.

Does you wife know that you would rather her die than terminate a pregnancy? Get back to me on this. I'd be curious of her opinion.

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by skipdup

But, my point is, too many here are making this a religious-only issue. If non-religious people are anti-abortion (which we all know is true), then this religious argument is bonk - at least to them.

- Skip

I totally agree. However, those that have made their decision solely on their religious beliefs have trouble differentiating between the two. For them it is one and the same.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Mule

Does you wife know that you would rather her die than terminate a pregnancy? Get back to me on this. I'd be curious of her opinion.

Mule- Seriously... Do your kids (if you have) know that you'd rather kill them than have your wife endure a risky pregnancy? Just sayin...

[kstar]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Mule- Seriously... Do your kids (if you have) know that you'd rather kill them than have your wife endure a risky pregnancy? Just sayin...

Skip - do you want a government or religious organization telling you your wife must die and the fetus/baby must be born . . . without exceptions?

Best,

Kurt

[RWebb]

"When you say "most", what is that based on?"

- This was re most abortions are spontaneous a statement I made about 4-5 pages above. I'm a professional scientist, specifically a physiologist, and my statement is based on numerous scientific studies on the question.

He also pointed out that a decision to force an abortion is not the same as a spontaneous abortion. That is true, but it conceals the vast gradient in pre-natal care. If we really wanted to reduce abortions we would provide a lot more pre-natal care than we do now. That is a societal choice, and an individual one just as the decision to have an abortion when a woman knows she is pregnant is.

Now - at the moment of conception (the Catholic moment if you want to call it that) the zygote created is just a single cell. It resembles an adult human in no way at all except that it has the genetic complement that may allow it to become an adult human. IF you want to believe that the holy spirit invests it at that point, then go ahead -- but that is a _religious_ belief, unsupported by facts.

At the other extreme, just before birth, it is almost like a born baby. And our society looks VERY unfavorably on infanticide.

The problem is really one of deciding what protections a cell, or a ball of cells should get. What about a morula? (a ball of 12 to 32 cells with minimal differentiation). What about a blastula? (the ball of ~~ 128 cells now has invaginated and some cells are well differentiated from others). What about later stages of the embryo?

And, then what about a fetus with arm buds and leg buds but no brain structure?

The term "unborn" is fraught with connotations, and that is why those biased in a certain way insist on using it. The pure craziness in some is the belief that anything with human chromosomes is some sort of "human life" that deserves all the protections of an adult human. IF that were true, then my dead skin cells would count too -- they too have the potential to be turned into an adult human.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Skip - do you want a government or religious organization telling you your wife must die and the fetus/baby must be born . . . without exceptions?

Best,

Kurt

Kurt- It's all black and white to you guys.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Skip - do you want a government or religious organization telling you your wife must die and the fetus/baby must be born . . . without exceptions?

Best,

Kurt

Besides, aren't 93% of abortions simply birth control and not due to health and/or rape/incest?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Mule- Seriously... Do your kids (if you have) know that you'd rather kill them than have your wife endure a risky pregnancy? Just sayin...

Which bureaucrat or clergyman do YOU want making that decision, as opposed to you & your wife?

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Mule- Seriously... Do your kids (if you have) know that you'd rather kill them than have your wife endure a risky pregnancy? Just sayin...

Time for a story. Growing up in the midwest my mother and father (both Christian, we were somewhat church going etc.) was perfectly honest with my sisters and I as we were growing up. Although they loved us dearly, told us always and we knew their love was unconditional, they would tell us if asked that their spouse was the number one love in their life. We understood that their relationship was forged before we arrived and it would continue after we moved out of the nest. Not once in my life have I not understood this nor have I ever resented their reasoning.

Your question to Mule is unfair. Have you told your kids (if you have them) the darkest parts of your heart?

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Mule

Which bureaucrat or clergyman do YOU want making that decision, as opposed to you & your wife?

You know what... I don't know the answer to the health of the mother question. Seems like I would want "reasonable" exceptions.

But, since health of the mother (as I understand it) accounts for a VERY small percentage of abortions, I don't really understand your point.

Are you & Kurt trying to prove hypocrisy?

[Mule]

I believe your bible says something to the same effect that Micheal said, that when you marry, your primary allegiance is to your partner, not your parents, not your kids.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

...
Your question to Mule is unfair. Have you told your kids (if you have them) the darkest parts of your heart?

YES! Clearly it was an unfair question to Mule. Just as Mule's question to 72Doug is unfair. That was my point!

[Mule]

Originally Posted by skipdup

You know what... I don't know the answer to the health of the mother question. Seems like I would want "reasonable" exceptions.

But, since health of the mother (as I understand it) accounts for a VERY small percentage of abortions, I don't really understand your point.

Are you & Kurt trying to prove hypocrisy?

No just common sense. As for reason, I have found it in short supply on both sides of this issue.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by skipdup

YES! Clearly it was an unfair question to Mule. Just as Mule's question to 72Doug is unfair. That was my point!

My question is completely sincere & poignant to the issue.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by Mule

No just common sense. As for reason, I have found it in short supply on both sides of this issue.

Then, let me ask you... Are you for partial birth abortion?