Who will pay for the sin of murdering the unborn? - Page 25

Mule · 01-24-2008, 01:08 PM

Absolutely not.

Mule · 01-24-2008, 01:09 PM

Now, if it was my wife's life or ________________ (fill in the blank), wifey gets the nod.

dipso · 01-24-2008, 01:13 PM

Not to change the subject,
Im on my 4th guinness.
Ba,da,bum,bump. But seriously folks......

kstar · 01-24-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

You know what... I don't know the answer to the health of the mother question. Seems like I would want "reasonable" exceptions.

But, since health of the mother (as I understand it) accounts for a VERY small percentage of abortions, I don't really understand your point.

Are you & Kurt trying to prove hypocrisy?

I won't speak for Mule, but I am only trying to point out that a position like Doug's, which is against ALL abortions, is problematic and, IMHO, a result of Doug's religious beliefs.

It seems to me like most, if not all, of the pro-choice folks here recognize abortion is not a good thing at all; in fact many of the folks in this group have kids of their own! I don't think abortion should be used as a casual birth control, but also don't think criminalizing abortion will improve the situation.

As others have stated here previously, "health of the mother" is just one of many gray areas where an absolute position against abortion is unreasonable, IMHO.

Would you want a government or religious organizations making these difficult decisions for you?

Best,

Kurt

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:14 PM

Well then, I can't help but wonder how many pro-abortion people are for any and all abortions and how many anti-abortion people are for reasonable "exceptions"?

Mule · 01-24-2008, 01:15 PM

Not to say this is the case here, but I've talked to a number of pro-lifers who are waiting untill Sunday so their preacher can tell them what their next opinion is.

70SATMan · 01-24-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

YES! Clearly it was an unfair question to Mule. Just as Mule's question to 72Doug is unfair. That was my point!

I disagree. Mule's question was to illustrate what could be (and probably has been) a very real scenario between two adults with different views. Your question was posed purely for shock value from a purely hypothetical view.

Tell you what. Without warning, tonight, go mention to your children (if you have them) that if the puppy gets really sick you'll have to kill it. You would do that right? Not put that poor puppy through all that pain?

kstar · 01-24-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

Well then, I can't help but wonder how many pro-abortion people are for any and all abortions and how many anti-abortion people are for reasonable "exceptions"?

I have no idea, but I think the bell curve may be applicable here.

Best,

Kurt

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:19 PM

Kurt- Man, I'm as conservative as they come. I don't want government in my life. Until church takes over the state, which ain't happening, we don't have to worry about it.

I think you and I aren't that far apart. Seems like neither of us like abortion.

Quote:

Would you want a government or religious organizations making these difficult decisions for you?

We let government tell us not to kill people. Is it really that different for the government to tell us not to kill a baby in a mother?

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

I disagree. Mule's question was to illustrate what could be (and probably has been) a very real scenario between two adults with different views. Your question was posed purely for shock value from a purely hypothetical view.

Tell you what. Without warning, tonight, go mention to your children (if you have them) that if the puppy gets really sick you'll have to kill it. You would do that right? Not put that poor puppy through all that pain?

I don't get it.

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mule

Not to say this is the case here, but I've talked to a number of pro-lifers who are waiting untill Sunday so their preacher can tell them what their next opinion is.

I actually don't get this either. Are you saying most Christians are blind followers?

Mule · 01-24-2008, 01:22 PM

Skip, anybody who thinks abortion is a good thing is sick. I think the point here is that govt. or religious absolutes never work and the more serious the issue, the worse they are.

70SATMan · 01-24-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

Well then, I can't help but wonder how many pro-abortion people are for any and all abortions and how many anti-abortion people are for reasonable "exceptions"?

I think you know the answer to that unequivocally.

Mule · 01-24-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

I actually don't get this either. Are you saying most Christians are blind followers?

I've met plenty who are. Brain idling, waiting for the preacher to rev it up. That's not to say the other side ain't awash with morons too.

70SATMan · 01-24-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

I don't get it.

Well, I can't help you with that.

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mule

...
I think the point here is that govt. or religious absolutes never work and the more serious the issue, the worse they are.

I think I agree with what you mean.

However, murder (as in me going across the street and thrill-killing my neighbor) is pretty serious and pretty absolute. Some things are in fact black-and-white. Most things are not.

70SATMan · 01-24-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipdup

We let government tell us not to kill people.

Do you really think that's necessary?

72doug2,2S · 72doug2,2S's Garage

Mule,

In the case where a man breaks into my home at night and I shoot the man dead, there it would be the State's responsibility to see that the man's rights were not taken away unjustly. All I ask is for the same rights given to the unborn. If I killed my child in order to save my wife, I would expect the State to have a hearing and decide whether my actions were justified.

I want to see that right given to the unborn. Do you see the point? I might very well justify my actions to save my wife's life, but I fully expect the State to demand proof and pursue that case of justifiable homicide.

Believe it or not I've trying to get some work done, so I'm not avoiding you.

Jeff Higgins · 01-24-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

Man, I had to delete a lot more crap this time.

What is abortion other than ending a life? Forget the reasons, forget the rationale, forget the consequences, forget the sanctimonious BS. Give it to me simply please. I get lost wading through your mire.

I have no doubt you got lost. With that in mind, I will now give it to you as simply as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

What are those decisions anyway? You are obviously avoiding answering anything that even remotely defines your stand. I can't tell if you actually believe in the sanctity of life or not.

My decisions concerining those other scenarios, once again for your benefit, have absolutely nothing to do with my position on abortion. They are entirely seperate issues. You may as well ask me who I'm rooting for in the Superbowl, and try to infer some position on abortion from that.

I know you do not like that answer. It does not provide you with any basis from which to jump to your own conclusions, using your own additional assumptions. I have deprived you of your "aha!!" moment, wherein you can paint your picture of me, as so many others here have attempted. None of them have hit on it yet, and I suspect you would not either. You get lost too easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

Again, more simply this time...What is your stand on birth control that happens after fertilization? What is your stand on abortion? All, some or none? No more Rope-A-Dope. C'Mon, throw me a frikken bone here.

I've made my position on abortion abundantly clear. I'm against it. It ends a human life. I hesitate to call it "murder" as some would, as I do see differences, at least early in the pregnancy. "Morning after" pill? I have no trouble with that, as just one point where I feel it is not yet a human life. I do have a problem with it, however, insofar as it opens the door to arguing about "when" it is still acceptable to abort.

Given an inch, the pro choice crowd has taken a mile. Some would say it's not a "life" until it pops out on its own. Third trimester, or even right up to any time before a natural delivery, is fair game to this crowd. As some one mentioned earlier, the doctor must actually kill the baby in its mother's womb. That's no more than a sick, twisted game to me. Kill it inside: abortion. Kill it outside: murder. Either could happen on the same day to the same baby; the result is the same, but the legalities and morals of it are clouded in semantics and timing. I find that appalling.

As a result, I am undecided and am actually quite torn concerning very early term abortions. If aborting in the first week is o.k., why then, surely the first month is really not all that different. If we allow abortions in that first month, the the baby has no better chance of survival (not that that has anything to do with it) in the second month... and so it goes. I see it as a slippery slope I would prefer to avoid.

One final point of clarification. I know you didn't specifically ask me about this, but I do suspect that you are lost on this one as well. While I consider myself deeply religious, I subscribe to no real "religion" as you would understand it. See the "God thread" for my thoughts on that. Anyway, the only way that is relevant here is that my religious beliefs have nothing to do with my stand on abortion. I'm able to clearly seperate the two. Ending another human's life under those circumstances is wrong, even in the absence of any religion whatsoever. Just as wrong as if I chose to end your, or anyone else's life. It's just plain wrong.

skipdup · 01-24-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70SATMan

Do you really think that's necessary?

Do you really think we should abolish all laws?