Computer Trouble -- WinXP x64
 

This problem is starting to get to me. I'm trying to install Windows XP x64 on an otherwise perfectly operational Linux machine. When I start the Windows install, the keyboard begins acting strangely: it's like the keyboard is unresponsive, then once it finally "catches," it sticks. For example: I go to type in the registration key, for example, and I hit "Q." Nothing happens. So I hit "Q" again, and again, and again. Finally, I get a whole row of "QQQQQQQQQQQ." It stops on it's own after 6-20 times.

At first I thought this was a keyboard problem. Except that the same keyboard works fine on my other computer. It's also not isolated to the keyboard -- the mouse responds similarly, as if sometimes it's listening, and sometimes it's not. I have both of my computers on a KVM, and it works fine for the "slow" machine, and fine for Linux on the "fast" machine, but for some reason Windows isn't working right on the "fast" machine.

So after a long fight, I get Windows installed. I'd hoped that maybe the USB drivers in the installer were somehow incorrect, and that the full-fledged Windows drivers would be better -- no such luck. Fortunately, I have another symptom: if I click on something, say, a close box, it changes shading, then closes. The interesting thing is that there's an unusually long delay between the computer's acknowledgment that I've clicked (the change in shading) and the response -- like the whole machine is hung up, waiting for something. The "hang" lasts for anywhere from about 1-3 seconds.

I tried booting into Safe Mode, in hopes that perhaps there's something special here ... no such luck. If it helps any, the motherboard is an Asus A8NE, with an AMD 3200 processor and 1GB of generic memory. The keyboard and mouse are both Logitech.

I'm open to anything -- any random ideas, and off-the-wall concepts or stories that you picked up somewhere are good. I'm desperate.

Thanks in advance,

Dan

Am I missing something? You are trying to load a 64 bit version of Windows XP on a 32 bit machine? That AMD chip looks like it is only 32 bits. Why Windows XP x64?

The chip is good, this is a keyboard driver issue so says the Microsoft engineer sitting next to me. He suggests that if you're using a USB keyboard, try a PS2 and vice/versa.

I see your problem. It's "trying to install Windows".

Sorry could not resist.

At least he can install it on any machine he wants, sorry can't resist.

? huh

I think he means that you have a wide variety of of hardware choices as compared to the limited line of Apple machines.

But not nearly as many machines as you can install Linux on.

Heck, here at the house alone I have Debian running on my router machine (old Pentium 200), a Debian install on a IBM 486, Ubuntu on my desktop (dual AMD rig), Ubuntu on this laptop (new Dell D520), the OS of my Nokia 770 (ARM based tablet) is debian based. If you want to get work stuff involved, then I'll claim my little tiny portion of the IBM mainframe running SuSE Linux.

I'll agree wtih stomachmonkey - your problem is trying to put Windows on a perfectly good Linux machine :)

Excellent, I knew I was making an obvious mistake. I'll just go back to running Linux alone on that box. ;) Now I've just got to figure out how to play rFactor under Linux ...

Ok, seriously: yes, it's a 64-bit processor. If I try to install a 32-bit OS on it, it complains. One Linux installer gave me a nice dialog box that says, "Groovy processor, dude, you need a 64-bit OS to run on that thing!" I tried to load the driver software that came with the keyboard (who ever heard of a keyboard driver?), and it complains that the driver is 32-bit.

I don't have a PS/2 keyboard handy. I don't even think I have a PS/2 plug in the back of the machine. I agree that it's probably a driver issue, but I'm honestly not sure which one. (Seems like a USB host controller could be at fault too, no?) If the MS Engineer says he's sure it's a keyboard issue, I'll push down that direction. It's just bizarre that my other windows machine (admittedly 32-bit) would run fine with this keyboard, while the 64-bit version of the same OS would totally crap out on it.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll hopefully post again from the other machine in 2 hours once I've figured out how to install a keyboard driver without a keyboard. :)

Dan

Alright, just finished downloading and installing the latest version of the driver from Logitech, no joy.

What else?

Tried the latest version of the video driver, ATI x600 series ... it seems like it's marginally better, but definitely not fixed.

Any other thoughts?

Just fought through the install for all of the Asus-associated motherboard drivers (except the BIOS updates; I'm not trying to muddle through that with mouse/kb acting like they are). Just as bad as before.

I'm beginning to wonder if I have some kind of actual hardware problem. Linux is robust enough that it shrugs it off, but Windows is too fragile to deal with it. Anyone ever see anything like that?

Dan

Does the machine have enough ooomph ot run Linux as a host and a guest install of Windows via VMWare? Will VMWare play RFactor well enough for you? May be the easiest solution....

VMWare, not a bad idea. Seems like I'd lose enough efficiency in the emulation process that it wouldn't be any quicker than the slow machine. If I can't fix Windows, I may end up doing that. Good idea.

There is a package called driver magician that will look at your machine, go to the web & pull down the most current drivers for every device. I've had good luck with it.

Doing a quick google, it looks like it may be possible to play rfactor in Linux under wine... you will need a version of wine with directx 9 support though, but it is out there. May want to try cedega or crossover as well (commercially supported wine - not all Free is free)

Yeah, choices that result in a much harder task of making a stable OS. While I'm no MSFT fanboy even I have to admit the platform would be much stabler if the endless configuration permutations were less.

DJ's issue looks to be shaping up to be a prime example of this.

UHHH....

Linux works. Windows won't install. Hence this thread.

Just out of curiosity. why XP x64? Everyone knew it was a train wreck from the jump, and honestly seemed more like a proof of concept "See we can write a 64 bit XP" than something actually useable. I've never heard a single good thing about it and when it came out, most people recommended waiting for Vista.

Why not try Vista x64? I've heard it's leaps and bounds better than 32. I was going to try it, had it all set to install, but 32 bit pissed me off too much and I just reformatted and put something else on. My friends that have used x64 say it cleared up a lot of issues from the 32 bit version.

Anyway, you might want to check the BIOS and try playing with the ACPI options, Legacy USB and things like that. Or, if possible, use a PS/2 keyboard

hmmm, installing is really not that much of a beni if it don't work.;)

Everything has issues, this one can be worked out as well. I just wrote an application, well still writing it in my lab today, where it installs windows on ANY machine without incident. Nice little pre-gui with a few simple questions, then the magic starts, 20 mins later and *poof* you're done.

Good point -- I can install Windows on any combination of hardware that I want. ... But it may not run well, if it runs at all. This is the classic Apple/PC debate. Historically, I've done pretty well in my gambling with PCs. I've been able to run Linux on virtually every bizarre little piece of hardware I've been able to get my hands on. I've only really had a couple of weird driver issues with Windows, too. ... But then, I never had any weird driver issues at all with my Mac. (sigh) I keep saying that I'll eventually get another laptop, and it will be a Mac.

In any event, I downloaded the trial version of Driver Magician, and it looks like a pretty spiffy program. I suppose the registration would save me the hassle of copying/pasting the provided links into a browser, but it works well enough without to see if it's any good. I'm going through the last reboot for the last driver that it recommends. I'll let you know if it worked in a moment ... Nope, no joy. That means that either I've somehow managed to miss a driver, or it isn't a driver issue at all.

If anyone else has any ideas for how to make windows xp x64 run correctly, I'll try 'em. In the meantime, I think I'll shift the focus of my efforts to making Linux run windows programs instead. I haven't tried Cedega in a while, since shortly after they split with the Wine group and went commercial. I'll give them a shot. Seems like Cedega relies on a proper windows installation, though, which means it will be pulling from the installed (flawed) windows. This may take a while; I'll update when I can.

Thanks for the ideas.

Dan

OK, MS Premier support is telling me that you need to make sure that your wireless adapter (if you have one) is disabled, and if you have a hard wired ethernet port disable that as well.

SlowToady -- Vista x64? Um ... ok, I don't mean to be rude, but that's honestly the first nice thing I've heard about Vista. Everyone I know who's installed it has reported Bad News afterwards. Wow. ... but, ok, you know what? I'll give it a shot, because it can't possibly be worse than what I'm running now. Give me a moment and I'll report back on if it worked. I'll probably try another look at the ACPI/USB/etc settings in the BIOS first. Do you have any hints on stuff that's worked for you in the past, or that's caused you problems?

Scott, are you suggesting I ... basically disable any network connectivity at all? That could be frustrating. Is it acceptable to disable it at the BIOS level (where I have full control of the computer), or does it need to be disabled in the windows control panel (which will take me a lot longer, what with the mouse and keyboard acting up)?

Thanks again for all the help. I'm having fun, honest. :)

Dan

Just asked, they say turn it off at the bios level, and if it's a wireless add-in card, or a wireless add-in nic, pull it. They also recommend removing any other add-in card as well.

Ok, the only card plugged into the MB is the video card, and network and sound (which are on the MB) are both disabled at the BIOS level. Still no luck. What's next?

Dan

Since Linux is more lenient on memory, remove all but your lowest supported amount of memory.

yeah, try to run with the stock sticks.

I know, trust me. I said the same thing. I've read a lot of reports online, also, where users reported their computer working better after going to Vista x64. Of course, not everyone has had that sort of luck with it, as you've heard. The mix of hardware available, and then the different revisions of the same, makes it sort of a crap-shoot to determine how it will perform until you try it. From the sound of your post, you already have a copy, but if not, I can give you mine (yes, with legit Serial #). It's like Vista x64 Ultimate blah-blah-blah.

Some tips..well, let's see. Try enabling/disabling Legacy USB support. Play with your different ACPI settings. I didn't look up if that chip is dual-core (I don't think it is, though...) change the MPS settings. Take everything out, except for the video card. Disable built in USB and try an add-in USB card that you KNOW has XP x64 drivers. Try turning off sound, NIC, etc, in the BIOS. You mentioned generic memory; that can cause you all sorts of problems. If you can, try and get your hands on some Kingston or Crucial or some other name brand stuff. Might have to try a few different brands. Flash the BIOS to a newer version, or even try an older one. Does your version of XP x64 come with any SPs or updates? Try it with and without them.

Good luck...

Also, a quick glance at the mobo manual says it supports both ECC and non-ECC RAM. Try them both, of high quality variety.

I'll run a memory check when I get home tonight; it would be tragic if it was bad memory. I hate it when that happens. Would it be possible for memory that passes memtest to still be "bad" in the eyes of Windows? I'll see if I can get my hands on some high-end ECC memory to try, but I'm hesitant to start spending money on what is essentially easter-egging.

SlowToady, I don't have my hands on a copy of Vista x64 just yet. I was hoping to ask around and see if I could borrow a copy to find out if it would work any better. If you have some easy way of getting a working copy to me, it would speed the process up some. I'd very much appreciate the assistance.

Already tried pulling everything but the video card and disabling everything else. I don't have a USB add-in card, but it's a good idea. I'll see if I can get a cheap one at the local Computer's 'R' Us this afternoon.

Thanks for the tweaking tips; I'll go back into it this afternoon and try playing with BIOS settings again. I believe there is a BIOS update, but I'm hesitant to flash the BIOS unless I know that I have solid control of the mouse/KB.

Thanks again, all.

Dan

Does not necc need to be bad.

SIMs are speed rated in nanoseconds, ie 60ns, 70ns etc...

While some logic boards will tolerate different speed chips they should be installed as "matched" sets to avoid flakiness.

Generally I buy them faster than the recommended speed.

Say you get 60's, one can run higher and one can run lower and the combined diff can make for a mismatched set.

If you buy faster than the board can address and there is a diff in the chips the board will not see it.

I've had good chips that worked in one box and not another.

SM -- thanks for the memory experiences. IIRC, the two that went into this box were ordered at the same time -- I knew I needed matching memory, so I did my best to get stuff that would work well together. The memory that you found that wouldn't work in other boxes -- did it fail memtest? Assuming that I've got some kind of memory speed discrepancy, would manually setting memory speed lower at the BIOS help?

Googling today at work showed that there is a BIOS update which might potentially relate to my video card. There's a vague note on the Asus site buried in a README that says that one update for my board fixes an interface problem with ATI x600 video cards (which is what I have). There's another note that says, if you go digging through their obscura, that certain versions of the AMD Athlon 3200 require certain versions of the BIOS. I'll have to figure out which processor version I have when I get home to make sure I'm running with the proper BIOS version. I think I'll download the update to my working machine, figure out what's required to run it, then build a single-click package that I can move to the non-working machine.

That assumes, of course, that it's doing fine with the memtest right now. I started memtest as I was on my way out the door this morning. If it all comes up good, I'm going to have a hard time justifying to myself that I need to buy new memory. If it comes up bad, it's real easy to justify new memory (or ... to justify just not playing rFactor on the fast computer).

Cheers,

Dan

Ok, home from work, and memtest has run successfully many many times. No errors found.

And the BIOS version check ... looks like mine is recent enough to include all applicable updates. I don't have a floppy drive anyway, so booting from a floppy to get to the update would be a monstrous hassle.

Pressing on to tweak memory settings. Back in a few ...

StomachMonkey, you may have the strangest name, but you're one smart cookie! I turned off auto-management of memory settings and started toggling things so they looked more conservative. 1T instead of 2T, 200 instead of 400, disable anything that looks like a performance feature ... and it worked.

Memory faults it is, caused by bad auto-detection of something at the BIOS level! You can't imagine how happy this makes me! I owe you big time. Wow.


Next step, of course, is to go back through the settings and slowly switch everything back to defaults one by one and see what breaks it. I'll report back in a bit.

Wow, I'm stunned. Tweaking the memory settings manually worked! This is beautiful! :)


Dan

Found it -- The setting that breaks the system is the "Hyper Transport Frequency." Some googling shows that my combination of processor and memory should be ok at 5x, but it locks up if I use anything about 2x. Bizarre.

yay,

Nice diligence.

Always satisfying when you beat a problem like that. And the plus is you pick up some info along the way that may not have applied today but just may tomorrow.