Permit?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

It's a bit different though, because you're talking about an entire house, and you're dealing with contractors. In your case, they were required to follow a process and did not. You have far more latitude on your own house, doing your own work.

Maybe where you live.

In NY, completely different story.

Admittedly plenty of people do it but you run a great risk of being burned later on sale.

The garage was also an issue.

The finished one was 4 ft deeper than the CO was issued for.

Due to a recent change in property setback if it did not conform I would have had to have removed the entire thing, not just cure the extra 4 feet.

[island911]

Originally Posted by MRM

....
With a permit goes some oversight to make sure the work is done to code and with a licensed contractor or tradesman. It also ensures your neighbors (and when they do their house, it ensures you) that there won't be some broken down eyesore devaluing their property. It's a pain in the rear, it's an impingement on your individual rights and liberties, and it's a good thing in the long run for everyone.

Permits are not the 'good thing' --quality work is the good thing. Permits are just a layer of bureaucracy. ...a layer of review by some bureaucracy with ZERO liability of the outcome. If you design something beyond a cookie-cutter solution you must pay extra to educate that bureaucracy to understand. (if you choose the permit route)

Some areas require a permit to paint the trim. --where does this scam stop?

As to insurance, a permit is just one indicator (to the insurer) that work was done to an acceptable /minmal level. The insurer may have stipulated a higher level of construction. (that is, if they are going to dick you on permits, they would likely find other "reason") YMMV

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You're right and in most cases stuff like that is fine. The rule of thumb is that if it affects structure, mechanical capacity, envelope performance, square footage, occupancy type or electrical service it probably needs a permit. Otherwise it probably doesn't.

Given the stuff I've seen though, I'd be worth asking (and documenting) the question. One can never be too careful in a society full of people constantly looking for new and creative ways to rip you off.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Maybe where you live.

In NY, completely different story.

Admittedly plenty of people do it but you run a great risk of being burned later on sale.

The garage was also an issue.

The finished one was 4 ft deeper than the CO was issued for.

Due to a recent change in property setback if it did not conform I would have had to have removed the entire thing, not just cure the extra 4 feet.

You could also make the case that this is due dilligence on your part, to educate yourself on any rules pertaining to your particular project. I know that if I planned to physically alter my house (addition, etc) I would be certain I knew what the required property setbacks were.

Out of curiousity, how detailed is the county appraisal information that your respective areas keep on file? We only have to deal with the basics, such as square footage, basement finish, and garage. So short of adding on, there's no way our officials would know if there were changes made to the house. They even have our unfinished basement listed as finished, so past owners have been paying taxes on it for years. Without being invited, appraisers are not allowed to enter your home in KS.

[MikeSid]

I've done work with permits and without. I understand that it's designed to be a check on the quality and safety of the work. But around these parts it's mostly about revenue.

Revenue for the permit fees and revenue due to an increase in your assessed value for property tax purposes. The city has a computer program that takes the square footage of your project and assigns a value increase for the renovation. This has nothing to do with actual value of the improvement and does not account in any way for the materials used. It's not arbitrary, but it's certainly not very accurate.

And while I'd like to believe the safety angle, I just can't. I've had too many inspectors just glance at my work and sign off.

So for certain required projects, like a new gas line or electrical service panel, I'll pull a permit. Both because the service won't get turned on with out it and because the safety and insurance compliance concerns are important. But for a bathroom remodel... not bloody likely.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by MRM

I make a very good living in construction litigation because of idiots who build things that don't meet code.

OT but... Please tell me you're not a class action CD atty!!!!! Please!

Around here builders are sued routinely for completely bogus claims. Many of those who might ultimately receive a check for their "damages" have been quoted as expressing surprise to learn there were any. It is the most disgusting form of legal shakedown I have EVER seen, and it continues unabated in CA.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

You could also make the case that this is due dilligence on your part, to educate yourself on any rules pertaining to your particular project. I know that if I planned to physically alter my house (addition, etc) I would be certain I knew what the required property setbacks were.

Out of curiousity, how detailed is the county appraisal information that your respective areas keep on file? We only have to deal with the basics, such as square footage, basement finish, and garage. So short of adding on, there's no way our officials would know if there were changes made to the house. They even have our unfinished basement listed as finished, so past owners have been paying taxes on it for years. Without being invited, appraisers are not allowed to enter your home in KS.

I did not personally do a thing to alter the house.

The builder that I bought it from did it AFTER the town had signed off on it.

In NY home transactions are so complicated that you MUST hire an attorney, both sides.

I expect that if I pay an attorney thousands of dollars for their expertise that I should not have to educate myself on the the volumes of law required to do a transaction.

It is so complicated in NY that there are attorneys that do nothing other than home closings. They make a very nice living on that alone.

When I went to cure the problem my current attorney sent me an expeditor who got paid $1500 to go to the town and file for my permits. That's a couple of hours worth of work. I asked the attorney why i could not do that myself. She said you could but it will take you 3 x's as long, cost you 2 x's as much and at the end of the day you will still hire him to get it done.

I verified that with 3 people that I knew in the construction trade, they all said the same thing.

The guy came by and did find additional stuff that I never would have thought of.

The garage, I added a panel and 220 to it. That was not a problem The fact that I added floods to the back of it was a big deal. Required me to get a UL inspection for it. Who would think that adding a light to the exterior of an existing structure with existing electrical was an issue? I did add extra exterior outlets to the house, that was fine. Makes no sense.

My point is he should not be asking for advice from people spread around the country. Obviously in your area things are pretty simple. Not so everywhere else. Where he is may be simple in comparison to NY. But if it's similar he could be in for a world of frustration for not playing by the rules.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Good Lord man, no wonder it's so expensive to live in NY. One good thing about this BBS, it often makes me greatful to live in KS, where life is still simple and cheap.

[MRM]

Originally Posted by daepp

OT but... Please tell me you're not a class action CD atty!!!!! Please!

Around here builders are sued routinely for completely bogus claims. Many of those who might ultimately receive a check for their "damages" have been quoted as expressing surprise to learn there were any. It is the most disgusting form of legal shakedown I have EVER seen, and it continues unabated in CA.

No, I'm a defense attorney. I represent window manufacturers. We don't really have the class action industry in the upper midwest that they have in California. Most of what I do involves single family homes on a one case at a time basis. I do some condo/townhome cases, but mostly it's single family residential. We see some bogus claims, but mostly they're legit. When you cut into a house you either see mold and rot or you don't. Since the construction problems are rarely, if ever, the window manufacturer's fault, I have a great gig.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Good Lord man, no wonder it's so expensive to live in NY. One good thing about this BBS, it often makes me greatful to live in KS, where life is still simple and cheap.

Just wait until the bureaucrats and big government types start moving there. They'll complicate it and screw it up for you, too. Enjoy it while you can. . .

[onewhippedpuppy]

Nah, we're all simple types. Plus, there's no glamour here. The flashy suits move to the coasts to get noticed, we're just happy to live our lives in peace.

[jyl]

Municipalities enforcing building codes via permits/inspectors is a pain.

But it is also why you don't have to X-ray every piece of every house you buy.

Because you can usually assume that structural, electrical, plumbing, etc work has been done more-or-less to code.

My uncle's entire house was flooded - two floors and basement - lost hundreds of thousands in irreplaceable art and books (he is an art dealer) and it took six months to reconstruct the house. Because some guy had closed off a upstairs bathroom copper pipe by pinching the end shut and soldering it. Obviously, not to code.

Imagine if crap like that was rampant because of no permits.

[jyl]

For another story, a friend of mine has rebuilt his entire house without a single permit.

I don't know how he got away with this, but he did. Now, this guy is an ex-civil engineer, he knows more about construction techniques and the building code than anyone I have ever met, he is also a raving perfectionist. So his work more than meets code, I am sure of it.

But I am baffled as to how he expects to sell the house when the time comes. Maybe if he lives there for 20 years.

[Hugh R]

Wow, lots of feedback. I'm just taking out fake marble and replacing it with cement board and tile. I'm not even going to ask the City.

[jyl]

Makes sense, for such a minor thing. How would they ever find out?

[trekkor]

From my experience:

Anytime plumbing, electrical or structural is involved, a permit is required.

If it is the law, why do you want to break it? What's the reason?
Part of your city's operations budget is reliant on permit revenue.

If you get caught, now were talking hassle. Red tag and STOP WORK.
They have the authority to legally require you to remove everything and start over with double fees.

A permit is simple and hardly costs a thing for a small bathroom project. $2-400 I would guess.

If you are hiring contractor, you 100% want a permit. Why?
Only the homeowner or a licenced contractor can pull the permit.
They check for required insurance at the same time.

On a project like yours they would inspect:

Rough framing
Rough plumbing
Sheet rock nailing
and a final which may include bringing other unrelated items in the home up to code.
( like GFCI protected circuit in the bathroom and proper smoke detectors )

I've been through this over and over with clients.
I refuse to do work that requires a permit.
It's not worth it.

If you have NOT altered your ORIGINAL plumbing in any way, you likely DO NOT need a building permit. It is considered a cosmetic upgrade.

Call the city and ask.

If you go to sell and the prospective buyer checks the permit record with the city and finds no record, you may have a hard time selling as well.


KT

[look 171]

Originally Posted by daepp

My guess is that this doesn't apply since you're on a private drive, but around here the company with the garbage contract informs Code Enforcement when they see building materials set out for pick up. My neighbor got popped that way.

those bastard just want their money. Certain company are not allow to do business (this is picking up trash in a certain cities. they are "contracted" to rip off their citizens. they are usually $100 more for a can. We usually hire a trash pick up service for that.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Wow, lots of feedback. I'm just taking out fake marble and replacing it with cement board and tile. I'm not even going to ask the City.

hugh

did you replace the plumbing? Well, that requires a plumbing permit. Your shower pan and nail schedule will need one also. I don't know what you have done. If its just tile replacment, I wouldn't say anything and enjoy your new bath. If you fool around with the electrical, like lighting, then you will have to comply with CA title 24 law. You must have flor. lamps or a motion sen. switch. What a pain in the rear.

[Hugh R]

No plumbing at all. Replaced the pan like-for-like. Now you've got to have a motion sensor switch for lights in a bathroom? Really? Wow.

[RWebb]

call the city or county - at least here, they are very helpful to a DIYing homeowner.

since the reqs. vary you need to talk to YOUR permiting authority (they are all based on a uniform code but each can - and often does - modify that code)

the advice re protection from a bad contractor and from insurance co. who might disallow any claims is good advice; likewise the ability to ever sell or perhaps even refi the house.

Bldg codes are like stop signs - at 3 am you really don't need to stop, but usually you do. The problem here is you can't really tell whether you can skirt a certain code provision or not - even if you get away with it, it can come back and bite you later on.