Military job fair interviews, I want my day back

sammyg2 · 03-01-2008, 09:40 AM

I interviewed 8 people yesterday who were recently discharged from the military. It was set up as a job fair by a headhunter company who gets a percentage of their first year's salary if we hire any of them.
Mostly a waste of time (with one exception).

Resumes that claimed they were experts at maintaining and rebuilding steam or gas turbines and pumps, when the only real experience they had was watching a few gauges and writing down the readings (they didn't understand what the readings meant) and maybe lubricating some valve stems.
You could tell they were all coached extensively for the interviews, 4 of them answered the same canned question wrong with the same wrong answer. They had been coached by someone who didn't know the subject either.

One person with 6 years experience working as a maintenance technician on jet engines could not explain to me the flow of lubricating oil through the engine, or even how it moves. I asked him if there was an oil pump that made the oil flow to the bearings, he said "I think so". I asked, "are there any filters? He said, yea I'm pretty sure there are filters.
Another could not explain how a jet engine works. I even coaxed an answer, saying something like "OK there's a compressor section, a combustor section, and a turbine section, how does the fuel and air in the combustor section create thrust? No clue. I asked this person how the compressor section was driven? No idea. I asked how the compressor blades compress the air, deer in headlights. Not even a close guess, this person simply did not know how in the slightest how a jet engine makes thrust or works but she was trained to rebuild them?

The only one I'm offering a job to is an ex-marine who worked on Humvees, diesels, and small engines like atvs. I liked him, he was real and answered my questions and actually knew something about mechanics. He had a hundred times more mechanical experience than the "highly trained nuclear mechanics" or jet engine technicians and he seemed like someone I'd enjoy working with, great big smile, upbeat, looks like he enjoys life.

Is the navy so specialized that the people are not allowed to think or understand how something works or why?Most of them seemed like robots who were trained to complete a simple task and that was all they knew how to do.
I must say that the 4 people I talked to who were trained as "nuclear maintenance technicians" were impressive. Good looking young men, hand picked, intelligent, well spoken. Obviously the cream of the crop but they did not know anything about what they said they did.

I asked the head guy who was putting on the seminar if these candidates were coached, he said "my company does not coach these candidates".
Maybe his company doesn't but I'd bet you good money his company contracts another company to do it for them.
They were slick, if we asked a specific technical question they would provide an answer to a question we didn't ask, but one they had been programmed to repeat.
I asked if they had ever measured clearances and fits in a pump.
Two of them stumbled through the same response which was nearly word for word, "yes, and do alignment of dial magnetic indicators with depth mikes." Almost word for word, two people gave the same gibberish answer.

I said can you please elaborate, what did you use the magnetic indicator for? Same response, tape recorder. I asked, "on a depth micrometer, how many thousandths of an inch is one full revolution of the handle?" No answer except to change the subject.
I kept asking, they kept digging a deeper hole until it was absolutely undeniable that they had no knowledge of the subject even though their resumes painted them as experts.

That's not good salesmanship, it is not preparation, it is deception and fraud. It actually hurt the chances of three of the candidates. If they had told me I don't know instead of pretending they knew something they had no clue about, it would have left me with a better impression.
I'd rather teach an honest man or woman how to do a job than hire an expert who tried to deceive me.
If they had interviewed with just HR people they might have gotten away with it but it didn't fly with a mechanical engineer.

Obviously race has absolutely nothing to do with the hiring process, but the nuke guys (2 from submarines, 2 from aircraft carriers) were all hand-picked blue eyed Caucasians who came from the exact mold. The diesel mechanic we're extending the job offer to happens to be a black man.
I know there's some irony in there somewhere.

Joeaksa · 03-01-2008, 09:55 AM

Believe that you are seeing a cross section of our youth of that age from our big cities.

Bet that if you interviewed some kids that age from the MidWest who grew up on farms or such that their answer would have been different.

Joe

PS, there are no ex-Marines, only Former Marines!

HardDrive · 03-01-2008, 10:02 AM

Well don't just think its a military issue.

We have interviewed a number of girls who were recent graduates of University of Washington for nanny jobs. They look great, and they are well spoken, but they know NOTHING. Their lack of writing skills are shocking given that they have went to a good 4 year university.

I like ex-military kids. I don't expect them to know anything, but they can shut their mouth and follow directions, and thats good enough for me. You sit down, you show them how to do something, and they do it. Pure gold in my book.

rcecale · rcecale's Garage

Sammy,

I can't speak for the other services, I've only served in the Marine Corps, but "specialization" was something that was done away with back in the late 80's. A gift to us Marines from then Commandant, General Al Gray.

He couldn't stand the attitude of having one Marine that would remove a component and another one to put the replacement back in place. Being the smaller of all the services, specialization was something we simply couldn't afford to do.

Personally, I was initially trained in aviation hydraulics. In the 80's, my job functions were made to specifically include airframe structures. Unofficially, due to down-sizing and moreso, the prevalent attitude of just "getting the job done" I've ended up with experience in troubleshooting and removal/replacement of jet engines and related components, avionics components and even became pretty good at hanging ordnance.

While we were technically not "qualified" to do their job, having the experience from helping the other workcenters when ours was not as overburdened definitely contributed to squadron readiness.

Randy

PS. Re: "Ex" vs. "Former" Marines - What Joe said!

Jim727 · 03-01-2008, 10:49 AM

Stunning.

I think the candidates you rejected have moved on (up?) to choosing the next USAF tanker.

David · David's Garage

My neighbor across the street (actually my neighbor's boyfriend) is ex-military. He said he applied for a turbine maintenance job with my company and asked if I had any pull to get him the job. After a 5 minute conversation I said I couldn't help, sorry. And yes I could get him a job in a heart beat, but that's all we'd be hiring, a heart beat

BlueSideUp · 03-01-2008, 02:00 PM

I'm not sure where some of that attitude comes from as I'm not military but I do see some of it in my industry. Personally if I'm using a piece of equipment I want to know how it works for troubleshooting and operating efficiency reasons.

Some of the people I've worked with couldn't tell me how an air cycle machine works or what motive flow involved.

dbrisson · 03-01-2008, 02:34 PM

Actually I think the problem lies in the "military job fair" company itself. When I left active duty in 2001 the more qualified military guys avoided those like the plague. Mostly we had enough leads and skills to go it on our own. The people who used those were the ones not having any luck. I actually got invited to one, but they exerted so much pressure to come 3 days ahead of time to learn "how to interview" "use their provided research on the companies attending" and "coaching" that I declined. Like a bad used car salesman they kept calling. I wish I remembered the company name.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Their lack of writing skills are shocking given that they have went to a good 4 year university.

Do you see the irony here?

Joeaksa · 03-01-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

Some of the people I've worked with couldn't tell me how an air cycle machine works or what motive flow involved.

Any good airframe guy or gal who does not know how to explain either of the two above needs to get a good job at Wal-Mart as a greeter. This is not rocket science and the motive flow system has been used in airplanes for only about 60 years now!

Joe

BlueSideUp · 03-01-2008, 03:22 PM

Yeah they are both simple concepts. Just don't ask any FADEC questions or you'll stall people out for hours.

I requested the DME arc transition to the BC at Medford the other day and my FO looked at me like I was crazy. He didn't know how to "enter" that into the FMS.

Anywho if these coaching companies are setting up unqualified people with interviews that is bad business for sure. It's also not fair to those people trying to find jobs.

legion · 03-01-2008, 03:24 PM

My company only promotes from within. The head of my department (Systems) doesn't even have a college degree. He started when he was 15 sleeping on a cot in the server room and changing tapes so overnight jobs could run. 40 years later, he is running the whole department. We don't hire executives from the outside--they all started out at some entry-level job and worked their way up.

That said, there is one (and only one) glaring exception to the "promote from within" rule. We will hire ex-military in non-entry-level positions. Heck, a few years ago we hired Colin Powell's right-hand-man as a director (a few steps below a VP). We mostly hire officers, but enlisted will be given preference for entry-level positions. We even have one day a year that we celebrate all of the former and active-duty military that work at my company. There is a big catered breakfast, a general or admiral or other high-ranking military officer will be invited to come and speak, and attendees are encouraged to wear their uniform to work for the day.

I'm not sure how long this program has been in place, and I get the feeling that we tend to attract the cream of the crop from the military and there have been very, very few disappointments.

gprsh924 · 03-01-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Do you see the irony here?

haha

Tim Hancock · 03-01-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Any good airframe guy or gal who does not know how to explain either of the two above needs to get a good job at Wal-Mart as a greeter. This is not rocket science and the motive flow system has been used in airplanes for only about 60 years now!

Joe

I hope the local Wal-Mart is hiring as I have never heard of those two terms

Of course I only work on piston engined stuff and I have conveniently forgotten most of the basic turbine crap I had to memorize to get my ratings.

CRH911S · 03-01-2008, 07:35 PM

My son was a C130 crew chief and he says the reason behind the lack of depth with respect to training and knowlege is designed to keep military personnel in the military. In some respects I guess this explains why the military has a difficult time retaining most of the naturally intelligent and gifted young men and women for additional enlistments.

sammyg2 · 03-01-2008, 08:04 PM

Therein lies the rub, I was impressed with 5 of the candidates and would have offered then entry level positions but I don't have any of those.
About 10 years ago our training and development was done away with due to financial reasons (we were losing money and had to cut back) so I need people with at least some experience. I and some others will be doing most of the training to bring new-hires up to speed (when we aren't busy doing our real jobs) and we don't have the time it would take to start from scratch.

I liked the kids, the techniques used by the promoter was what I didn't like.

dbrisson, by any chance did that military job fair company you had experience with have a name that sounded like they made electronic components used in older British cars?

Jim Sims · 03-01-2008, 08:12 PM

"About 10 years ago our training and development was done away with due to financial reasons (we were losing money and had to cut back) so I need people with at least some experience. I and some others will be doing most of the training to bring new-hires up to speed (when we aren't busy doing our real jobs) and we don't have the time it would take to start from scratch."

So the plan is to have other companies do the entry level training at a loss and then your company lures them away and gains the benefit!? Corporate America at it's best. Sounds like a good way to eventually end up in a wage/salary bidding war over a shrinking pool of experienced personnel.

Joeaksa · 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

Yeah they are both simple concepts. Just don't ask any FADEC questions or you'll stall people out for hours.

I requested the DME arc transition to the BC at Medford the other day and my FO looked at me like I was crazy. He didn't know how to "enter" that into the FMS.

Anywho if these coaching companies are setting up unqualified people with interviews that is bad business for sure. It's also not fair to those people trying to find jobs.

I cheat. "Index, fix, then enter the arc distance on the fix dme point to the airport, then fly the circle" until the PNF can get the approach in the box and I can intercept the inbound course! Not to forget the BC button as well! About half forget the BC activation button...

Edit, Tim, motive flow is the same thing as a "jet pump" that many airliners and Learjet use to scavenge fuel out of wingtips into main tanks. No moving parts and never wears out. Uses high pressure fuel and a venturi effect to move fuel for free. Bill Lear designed this years ago on the Lear 23 (I believe) and its still in use industry wide.

Air cycle machine is what is used to heat/cool aircraft these days. Sorta a turbocharger on steroids that uses bleed air in a different way. Its not hard once you look at one. The small stuff you and I fly for fun do not need that, we just open the window!

sammyg2 · 03-02-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Sims

So the plan is to have other companies do the entry level training at a loss and then your company lures them away and gains the benefit!? Corporate America at it's best. Sounds like a good way to eventually end up in a wage/salary bidding war over a shrinking pool of experienced personnel.

Your point would be spot on, IF the wages were not adjusted to experience. No one in his right mind would hire someone off the street with no experience at all and pay them $65k plus overtime to start for an industrial mechanic job. That is a very high journeyman wage. An entry level person would be in the $15 an hour range and get raises every 6 months depending on progress.

If another company pays someone too little and they leave, that's their fault and not mine. If they are intelligent enough to train someone and then pay them what they are worth and treat them right they will not leave. It really is that simple.
We pay a higher wage than most competing industries and we do that for a reason, so we can attract higher quality skills. We expect excellence and pay accordingly.

Besides, I didn't get rid of the training department. That happened 8 years before I went to work for this company. I'm helping to rebuild training at this facility. I doubt it will ever be at the level it was at it's peak but it will be much better than what we have now.