Here's my problem with that point of view:

(1) If the gubmint decides to start charging for the "privilege" of breathing air tomorrow, are you just going to roll over and pay it "because that's the law"? My point here is that stupid laws and policies need to be challenged, otherwise they never change.

(2) This kind of traffic enforcement is a joke. It's purely about revenue and that's it. We're not talking about someone blowing a red light indiscriminately, mowing down a sidewalk of pedestrians, going the wrong way down a one-way street drunk at 90 miles an hour, etc. We're talking about a B.S. "victimless crime" of doing nothing more than driving the speed of traffic. When the popo can simply pluck you out of a pack and hand you a bill for $300 (not to mention the insurance implications and waste of your time), this is what is known as "government tyrrany". In the spirit of our founding fathers I believe we have every right - in fact I believe we have the OBLIGATION - to fight it. Tooth-and-nail, whatever it takes. That's why the courts exist.

3. "Write your politician"? Are you kidding me? Do you ACTUALLY think that counts for squat? In a day/age where politicians have 20% approval ratings and continue to run roughshod over the will of the people, that's frankly a lame suggestion. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I've stopped believing in the system. It's broken and it doesn't work. Sure, go ahead - write your representatives (if you think it'll do any good). Knock yourself out, but fight the stupid/inappropriate law with every resource at your disposal too.

4. I guarantee I'll do better things with that $300 than the gubmint ever will. My money, my choices. We should be trying to starve government of their insatiable desire to suck money out of the wallets of the people and "redistribute" it to cronies, illegitimate wars, kickbacks, hookers in NY, etc. Again, I say fight it - for the greater good.

5. I do believe that "man up and pay it" is the right thing to do if you get busted for something that places the public in jeopardy. I realize that the willingness to "suck it up" in this way is dependent on a person's individual moral compass, but I also believe that most people know the difference between a victimless crime (which is stupid - a crime with no victim should be stripped off the books in general) and an infraction that they need to take accountability for. This incident, if it went down as described, is in the former category and I see absolutely no moral issue with fighting it with every fiber of one's being. Legal technicalities, lawyers, etc. All fair game when you're dealing with state-sponsored tyranny that's really only about money.

The whole traffic court thing is a workfare program for lawyers.

Let see - 15 over is 80MPH on most interstates. Not really an unsafe speed if the conditions are right.

The whole tax-police complex has it all wrong - they are not set up to catch the ricer passing on the right, the NASCAR-effect tailgating SUV, the whole weaving in and out of traffic with no blinkers. It is five trooper cars on a sunny afternoon sitting at the bottom of a long down hill grade pulling over taxpayers to raise money..

I strongly disagree based on my own personal driving record. I got my first (of many) ticket when I speeded in my 1959 Bugeye.....(in 1959 :()).

Given the perennial "I speeded, I got a ticket, it was sooo expensive, it's a racket, the cop shoulda been fighting crime not stopping me because I speeded, I'm not a criminal I'm a law abiding taxpaying citizen who speeded and got caught and I'm mad, I wasn't speeding THAT much over the stupid speed limit, I speeded and been ticketed before (in my case, more times than I'm willing to make public, heh,heh :cool: (why do those damn cops wear sunglasses even when it's cloudy - because they can't look you in the eye, ha,ha?)) and EVERY SINGLE TIME I speeded and got ticketed it was even MOOORE expensive!, and I got even MADDER!, it's not FAIR!!" posts, apparently for some it's even MORE difficult than rocket science :).

Darisc,

You might try de-caf coffee in the morning. Might help.

The speed limit is the law, so the cops and highway patrol officers giving out the speeding tickets are fighting crime, because anyone speeding is breaking the law.

Yes, most of us agree that it would be nice to have them off chasing people who break in our houses, kill, rape or molest kids and so on but then they have to do both and if someone goes over the speed limit, they are going to get nailed.

Now, before you get your panties in a twist, almost all of us speed. I do all the time. Usually its 8-9 mph over the limit. Usually you do not get a ticket (or even a glance) at this speed. There is a reason I go this speed and its because I do not want to get any tickets, nor pay any fines. Do I sometimes go faster? Hell yes, but if I do I know that if I am caught that its going to cost me and am willing to pay the fine.

Do some cities or states use this for the money? Hell yes but please do not try and tell any of us that you were not aware of this beforehand.

Joe

PS "It aint fair".... let me let you in on something. Life aint fair. Not by a long shot. You take what you are given and run with it. Sometimes its good and sometimes its not so good.

The whole "speeding" thing is just shooting fish in a barrel and does very, very for public safety. Isn't that what it is all about anyway? Isn't that the justification for the limits in the first place and the enforcement thereof..
The trick in the city is for cops to zap you on the off-ramp. The highway may be a 55MPH limit - but the ramp is a city street with a 30MPH limit. Gotcha!

If you want to trace where accidents come from and injury and deaths on our roads - yes, there are many, many, many better things the police could be doing.

Road rage, drunks, druggies, following too closely and driving like an idiot is against the law too. I would rather see enforcement being applied to where it may do some actual good.

I am not for using technology against citizens - but I would love to see unmaked police cars with video equipment - to just cruise along in the middle lanes of our highways - and just keeping up with traffic - record and prosecute some of the madness that roars by...:mad:

Joe!

I'm in full agreement with you on your post that I quoted! I was cracking wise about the perennial "I got a speeding ticket!" whiners! Read my looong sentence again and note how I ended it.

Sorry my feeble early morning attempt at wisecrack humor didn't register (haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet, so I'm probably even less sharp than I usually am :D).

David

David, I understood your post just fine. And I haven't had my first cup yet. Not sure how he could have missed its meaning.

Yeah, but if you voluntarily jumps in the barrel and swims with the fast fishes you takes your chances (I know I do :)).

I've made numerous (forced) contributions to the public coffers over the years but have written them off as paying for playing.

The only way to bring a change if one feels the law is unjust is to get politically active and try to change it. I ungrudgingly accept that we are a nation of laws, good laws and bad ones that need changing.

I had an odd thought yesterday while sitting in traffic. Imagine buying a new 997 turbo, or some other 190+ mph car, and NEVER exceeding a single speed limit or breaking a traffic law on a public street. I mean technically this is the only way that you can legally own such a machine, the new M3 cannot be marketed as a tool for breaking the law, right?

The car companies' ad campaigns trumpet the performance of the cars and show them scorching the pavement, but then have little disclaimers on the bottom telling you to "obey all traffic laws". Can you imagine how difficult it would be to never exceed 65 mph, EVER, in a 500 hp, 0-60 in 4 seconds car?? I can't even do it in an old VW bus. If I never broke a speed limit on public streets in L.A., I'm pretty sure that I would get shot for impeding traffic within a week. Every single car is doing 45-50 on main artery and thoroughfare streets. Every. Single. Car. I would say that I am doing 10 over almost constantly when I drive every day, with little squirts up to ~60 on wide streets. Knock on wood, but I've rarely been pulled over and only got one speeding ticket in the last 10 years. (In my 911SC from hidden MC cop w/ radar gun). I was guilty and he got me fair and square so I just mailed it in. They are always expensive, even 20 years ago, so I expect that. Couple hundred bucks IIRC. :cool:

I can't even imagine how difficult that would be in my 0-60 in 4.1 seconds SC!

I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in the last 12 years.

Let me rephrase that; I haven't been caught speeding in the last 12 years.

As far as not catching "real" criminals, how many times have you heard about someone getting pulled over for a minor traffic infraction, and the police discovering some other major crime being committed by that person (kelos of drugs or wanted for murder for instance).
I'm not saying i condone the tax collector cops, but they DO have a purpose.

I find this all pretty amusing and irritating at the same time. The laws are set up to make lawbreakers out of all of us and we just gullibly go along and pay the fine because it is "the law". Well, the law is an a** in this case. Why is it that we happily agree that in a democracy we are willing to take the leaders that the majority of us vote for, yet we are not willing to accept the speed limit to be set at the level where the majority of us feel safe? Us same brilliant souls who elect our representatives somehow do not have the brains how to ensure a correct balance between safety and speed....bugs the crap out of me.


Ask pretty well any traffic engineer, the safest speed for a particular section of road is the 75th (or so) percentile, which typically would result in speed limits going up somewhere around 10 mph or so. Barring any unusual road configuration, it is what needs to be used to maximize the safety/time balance.

As sit turns out, the driver for most speed limits are either cash cow set by the PD or they are set politically by a special interest group. Case in point near us....4 lane, divided, limited access road...speed limit 30 kmh. Why? Because some guy living on the road wanted to cut down on traffic going past his house (the road was there when he bought) so he kept lobbying for years until the finally accepted his argument that the presence of a school required a permanent slow down, not even a school zone limit. Cops just love that road, any time they need to make their quota they just park there and rake in the tickets.


So my view...lobby our beloved politicians to use rational speed limit setting, and then direct the PD to enforce those pretty hard with pretty limited tolerance for overage. Have them focus their attention on the higher risk behaviour like following too closely and driving without due care and attention (like on a cell phone). And make absolutely sure that ZERO ticket revenue goes to the police force, completely eliminate any possible linkup between PD behaviour and revenue...

Just my .02..

Dennis

So by that token we should just allow the cops to kick in anyone's door at random and search them/check them for warrants? That's the extension of that logic - that the occasional ends justify the means and there should be no presumption of innocence of serious wrongdoing on the part of anyone in society who's just going about their business doing what everyone else does.

Pretty thin.

I am by NO means condoning the gustapo kicking in doors to check for papers, i'm just pointing out that the popo does catch some really bad guys because they make stupid mistakes driving.

I get what you're saying, but it also sounds a lot like "the (unintended) ends justify the means". I have a bit of a problem with this, because if you follow that logic out, you end up with exactly what I suggested (cops harassing the populace at will anywhere, anytime because they "might" uncover a bad guy).

Here's a novel suggestion: If the popo wasn't tied up wasting their time playing with Warren Buffet's Geico-provided radar/laser guns to make him richer, maybe they could be in some of those places where the really "bad" guys hang out and doing something about it.

Ultimately it comes down to tactics - what's more likely to find/catch you a bad guy: pulling over random cars or targeting known criminal hangouts/activities/neighborhoods and following leads?

"Fishing expeditions" are discouraged as part of our judicial process. Or at least they're supposed to be.

Joe,
I totally agree with you right up to the point where I climb in that twin turbo beast of a car........ man that sucker goes fast! ;)

[QUOTE=Porsche-O-Phile;3827918]I get what you're saying, but it also sounds a lot like "the (unintended) ends justify the means". I have a bit of a problem with this



I totally agree, but how would you feel about it if the popo stopped someone in your neighborhood for rolling a stop sign (calif. stop) & discovered stolen items and burglery tools in the car?

I'd feel that those were some very unlucky thieves. :)

Sorry about that you two.

Problem is that I do not drink coffee, so the most awake I will ever be is when I hit the floor running, and it gets worse as the day goes on!

unlucky? yes, but mostly stupid.
don't you just laugh your ass off when you hear about someone pulled over on I-5 for a busted tail light & they have a BALE of pot in the car.
Wouldn't you think that if you are going to transport something like that in the car, you would obey ALL traffic laws & make DAMN sure the car was in good shape?