Why did Porsche want interactive parts diagrams removed?
 

I was really disappointed to see that Porsche USA asked Wayne to remove from his website the so convenient interactive parts diagram tool he developed based on diagrams that are available on Porsche website. I am wondering what the reason behind that is. Sure it is their diagrams, and they can decide how they are used online, but that was not a very cool move from Porsche, if you ask me.
I doubt that they will get into helping DIYers and use this tool on their own website, so it looks to me like a loss for all of us. Wayne, any info you want to share with us in this issue?

Aurel

By the way, other websites are doing basically the same thing for used parts:

[link to competitor removed]

I wonder if Porsche USA is going to ask them to remove that also...

Aurel

It's the man trying to keep the DIY'r down!

Interesting turn of events. They obviously own the diagrams. And they do sell the same parts so Pelican is a competitor.

But it is pretty crappy of them.

Ian

Porsche makes more money selling cars than selling parts.
Why would they want anyone maintaining old Porsches?

It seems that everything "Porsche" is a uphill battle! Don't they know that we are on the same side!

Wayne,

Regarding your last paragraph, I've always wondered if Porsche has seen an increase in parts sales since Pelican came along. I happened to find the 101 Projects book in a book store before I had purchased (while looking for) my 911SC. Not long after I found my car I discovered the website and have since spent thousands on Porsche parts. Yes, Tweeks and Automotion had been around for years but I would imagine that once Pelican came along, DIY on vintage Porsches must have really taken off. I certainly wouldn't have tackled many of the projects on my car without the help from this board.

In short, do the accountants in the parts department at PAG appreciate what Pelican has done...?

I just do not understand the logic of Porsche NA sometimes. First they discontinue half the parts for older 911s (that are obviously still in great demand, as the success of this site indicates), then they "consolidate" a lot of stock back to Germany, making it difficult and inconvenient (and expensive) for parts customers. Now they want to cut off interactive parts diagrams so that customers can make informed decisions about which part #s to get.

Are they deliberately TRYING to alienate/destroy their customer base? I understand the copyright defense thing, but perhaps an agreement could be worked out whereby they authorize certain businesses to use them or lease them. . . I'm sure Pelican would do this. Probably a few others too.

Anyone else who has tried to source parts for early or mid-year 911s will understand my frustration. I have gone to my local P-car dealership several times for parts only to be told "sorry, we can't get that". A couple of times Pelican got it, a couple of other times I had to go elsewhere but I did eventually source the parts. Gigantic waste of time.

It's a turf thing.... control. No doubt PAG sees some benefit in well cared for old 911's and such holding up the flag of "Porsche reliability." So when it comes to the details of making money, they are likely to consider other subtleties too; like who gets to control Porsche documentation. Short sighted? --likely.

The diagrams were very handy. Based on Porsche asking them not to be used here. I pledge never to buy parts from the P dealers.

Pelican does more for the preservation of these older cars than Porsche realizes. WTF?

Wow, I just noticed that now. I've been doing a ton of parts research with my 915 rebuild currently in progress, and the direct link to the parts diagram, complete with highlighted diagram #s (much simpler than full part #s) has been beyond invaluable. I thought that system was one of the best additions to PP I've seen. What a shame to see it go. PCNA once again screws their customers (us Canadian folk have have a lot of problems with PCNA, and I'm glad we don't have to deal with them anymore, now that Porsche Canada has been created).

Does PCNA really care about vintage part sales? I ask this in all seriousness - is there really a significant amount of money in it for them, compared to more modern parts?

Wayne,

I think all of us here who use your bbs and purschase parts through you are very disappointed. However if PCNA thinks by removing the parts diagram from your website that we will start using their authorized dealer network, they have been smoking to much corporate weed. Recently I had an electric window switch die, I was up the street from the dealer and thought I would pop in pick it up and be done with it. I went to parts counter and asked for the appropriate swtich for my 86 Carrera. The look on the parts guys face said it all, when he returned with the switch, ya they did actually have it, that will be $66.50. Yes, $66.50 for an electric window switch from my local dealer. I laughed, I thought it was a joke and then said ARE U F'ING SERIOUS? Needless to say I walked out the door. What Porsche doesn't understand is regaurdless of the fact that they take away sites use of their parts diagrams no one is going to purchase parts from their local dealers when they are marked up 300%.

Too bad.

Diagrams can be posted that are similar to the P AG diagrams -- even based on them, as long as they are not so close as to violate the copyright.

I hope they will see the light and let Pelican and their dealers use the diagrams, so the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented.

The bottom line is that P AG is either dedicated to the owners of their (older) cars, or they aren't. If it is the latter, then they need to recognize that some of use own or consider owning their newer cars as well. For example, I had a Boxster S for a while.

Is it illegal if the images in question are redrawn?

I'd be willing to lend some time reconstructing some of the images in AutoCAD or whatever if it's any help.

Better to use Unigraphics or Solid Works than Autocad, in IMNSHO.

Yeah, we know exactly what happens when the mother company is in control. $45 t-shirts and $1,200 gas tanks. No thanks.

Screw 'em.

I for one won't afford a new Porsche. I probably could, but choose to use my resources other ways. The appeal of an older Porsche is the lower cost of entry along with good support and reasonable parts cost and availability. If it gets too expensive, I'm sorry to say I'll be moving on. Doesn't matter to PCNA I'm sure, but it's reality for me. Researching parts and options is a big part of owning an older Porsche. What's next? Sorry but you can't use Porsche part numbers any more.

As I've always said:

I love the cars. But I HATE the company.

They don't realize how much they'd earn in goodwill- and dollars- by freely providing information like this to independents and DIY'rs. All those sappy reunion speeches about how much they value the heritage and appreciate those of us who keep it alive mean nothing.

My run in with them involved DE events. Both PCA and PCNA promote these events. But they don't tell you that you void your warranty if you do. Even on your radio.

Oh and don't look for an article on this in Panorama- the company mouthpiece.

didn't they try this in the 70's or 80's and it blew up in their face....big dealer revolt that caught them off guard...do they really think the US car market has changed the way they do business?
what makes them think that time will heal the wounds on that one?
there were some pretty sizable lawsuits if i remember.
exce11ence had something on this a while ago.

Idiotic. They are totally missing the point. I think selling too many cayennes got to their head.


Wayne, you're a much bigger force then you're playing out to be in this thread. You have much more power in your hands than you may think, as it seems from what you're saying.

It sounds to me as one of two things is happening. Either, because of the size of their organization, they have totally misjudged the negative effect of what they are doing. Or they have a plan to push PP aside and take over this internet market. Either way, they're losing out. Idiots.

When I bought my car I went with a parts list in hand to the local dealer. (B4 PP) The parts manager didn't have a clue to the car or parts. I might as well been ordering parts for a Nash Rambler... What parts he did order were weeks in delivery with no intervening follow up. Maybe it was only this dealer, but I wouldn't buy a car from those guys if my life was dependent upon it.

Buying a new car (even a Porsche) has little appeal to me. The depreciation hit alone is enough for me to say "no thanks" but beyond that I consider myself an enthusiast. I like understanding what I'm driving because I'm passionate about it. I like getting into the nuts and bolts of it a bit and seeing how things go together. A "new" car completely destroys that. Everything is there in a package, all done for you. No challenge, no real interest. Sure it's fun to drive but ultimately at that point it's just a "pay to play" deal. I think it's more fun/interesting to take something cheap (okay well maybe not "cheap" but maybe "less expensive") and earn your right to drive/enjoy it through your investment, upkeep, passion, sacrifice, time and effort.

I have this problem with my M.B. . . I bought it complete, in great condition, working and with no issues. For the first six months all I did was wash it, put gas in it and that's it. I had no friggin' clue the thing was even twin-plugged until much later. I had no idea it used a 3-valve-per-cylinder arrangement - and why - until later. I had no idea how the roof mechanism worked exactly. I just drove it. The driving was fun, but there was something missing. It's only after I had a chance to get my hands on it a bit (oil change, 60k mile service, etc.) that I really felt that it was "mine". I sort of "get" the car now and I appreciate it more. I find that the more I understand something, the more I enjoy the experience of what it does in return.

I don't ever want to be one of those guys that just pays for everything. If I break down on the side of the road, I want to be the guy who can figure it out and get myself home because of my knowledge and smarts, not simply say "call AAA" (or worse and more obnoxious still, "push the OnStar button"). There's a complete difference in mentality. Automakers/dealers do NOT get this. They expect every customer these days to be a soft, flabby, boring wallet with feet, not a person who wants and NEEDS to understand the product.

That's the difference in my mind. Any idiot with a fat wallet can write a check, show up at a PCA autoX and pretend to be a race car driver. I prefer to associate with the ones who obsess over their cars, keep them up, tune them themselves in their own garages in the dead of night, etc. Those people are more interesting and to me, that's something that CAN'T be substituted with a six-figure check. Maybe to Porsche it is, but not to me.

Wayne - Is there a particular person or department at PCNA that we could all e-mail?
I'd think that a couple of hundered e-mails saying;

"The integrated parts diagram/ordering system has proved invaluable in finding essential spare parts and keeping my classic 911/944 etc on the road. Please could you allow Pelican Parts to use this on their web site?" would do something.

Personally the nearest Porsche dealer is a good 1 or 2 hour drive from my house and it would be a pain in the arse to have to do that everytime I need a part. There are people that rely on the kind of service you offer to keep there cars running.

We need to plead with Porsche not to force us to buy 'ordinary' cars!

Aerkuld, that is a great idea. I am 28 and the Porsche world is new to me so I don't always recognize parts and their location as well as seasoned owners. I used the interactive parts diagrams to do every project big & small. This solutions was essential and its loss means I have one less tool to look for help. I would be the first to send an email to PGA and request that it be allowed.

Wayne you & this website are amazing and the convincing force in getting me into my 69' T.
Thank you for everything.

parts cataloque
 

I think Porsche is pissed off, because a non Porsche person/company managed
to develop a better system and it did not come out of their square head.
I had to deal with German manuals and parts list for many years and it always was a disaster.
The best part was that they finally admitted that they out source the manual writing and drafting to an Dutch company.
Germans might know how to built stuff, but to have backup technical data
is another matter.

Wayne
Maybe you could allow them to use the Wayne Dempsey package for a small royalty fee!!

Glad to see the diagrams are still on the Por-sha site, but sorry your work is for naught.

So I walk into my local dealership to pick up a cone set screw for my re-bushed shift coupler the other day. I didn't realize my cone screw was toast till after my pelican order was here. Luckily they had some in stock.

As soon as I set my coupler on the parts counter, the parts manager spouts: "Porsche does not sell bushings, you need to buy the whole coupler." I said "really, what do you think about these? Do they need replacing? :p He says "Oh those are after market, Porsche is concerned that you wont get your alignment right with those." WTF? I say, " you still have to remove coupler from shift rod either way, right?" :rolleyes: Silence, as he turns around and heads into the backroom. Luckily a younger, more enthusiastic parts guy rings me up and I am out of there!

Sorry for straying off topic, had to vent.:mad:

If they keep this up I'll have one of these in my garage
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1207979614.jpg
and selling an 82SC!!
Their were two cars I wanted while growing up a Porsche 911 and a 1966 Chevelle, well I did the Porsche thing, next!

Wayne,

I was wondering if you could find a way to slip your interactive parts diagram software on a CD in my next parts order, huh huh...of course, this would stay between us ;).

Aurel

Ummm - I second that and would pay a small registration fee to Pelican as a "special member".

I really wish I could say this surprises me. Unfortunately, any time you replace the person who is enthusiastic about their product with someone (or a committee) that is enthusiastic about the money, then the product soon deteriorates. Pick an industry - any industry - and that holds true.

Personally, I think Porsche wants older cars to be in museums, not our garages. In spite of the money and PR that went into "Classic Porsche". An enthusiast would be proud of the 40-year old cars on the road; the bean counter sees a new car that is not being sold - er, leased. The car business is following in the path of consumer electronics with a pre-determined service life to be replaced with a new unit. Don't repair, replace. Don't buy, lease. PoP is right, the consumer is viewed as a wallet with feet, and posers provide the same cash value to corporate as does an enthusiast - probably more, as the posers need new-and-cool to survive.

I've been a Porsche nut for a long time partly because it was an enthusiast community with pride in the product. I've had the good fortune to meet some of the family, but unfortunately, the family is little but marketing points to the current management and my enthusiasm for the marque is waning in proportion to their hostility toward their heritage.

I don't know if this is a problem that can be fixed.

Jim

The diagrams worked for me yesterday and were all improved looking. Whats the deal Wayne. Did'ya get something worked out?

after reading these i had to comment . first have you noticed how all new porsche dealerships are built the same. even their toy model of a dealership is the same as the one on snobbsdale rd. south of me which penske owns. penske auto gruppe.

since i have an "in" there i can say he stated porsche doesnt really give damn about older cars. the vast majority of my 1987 parts i have ordered came from stoddard. about 1/2 % ordered he had on the shelf. items that covered multi years/models. example cig lighter or some other goofy item that multiple models used.

this works the same at rover whom i deal with. they want nothing to do with a 1995 range rover county lwb POS! dont stock parts dont want to work on it.

funny i can get any damn part i want for my 1976 chevy all day long at chevrolet!!! go figure???

corporate mentalities amaze me. i would make the perfect corp. raider by slashing the throats of these mental midgets in the name of quality service/mfg./ and sales. a buck is a buck.

example: i am installing qwest DSL and direct TV as i write. my son is at home. i have fought with this since 5pm yesterday when my service started as per their verbal on phone and document w/modem. after umpteen dropped cell calls, upstairs phone dead,talking to foreign individuals that need english a first language badly, sounded like they had a mouth full of POO! more dropped calls............i find out i am dealing with qwest in ******* manilia, philiphines on a undersea phone line. needless to say my recorded for training purposes phone call didnt go well for them as far as quick positive customer service and a solution to the problems.

now thats ******* progress!

outsource pelican to some offshore country where they speak english w/POO IN THEIR MOUTHS will gurrantee i buy elsewhere! arrrrgggghhhhh! corp. u.s. is screwing themselves time and time again! let alone offshore corp's that do biz here!

you just answered your own question.

how can you move ahead if you keep stock piles of the old stuff? there are plenty of aftermarket companies and small mfg that make what you might need. more domestic cars sold so more parts still around. some of those 1976 parts might be re-manufactured or refurbished. how much NOS does that Chevy dealer really have? do you really expect a company to waste the overhead to stock every part they have produced for the last 30years? especially when if you add up all the cars Porsche sold in 1976 its possible that wouldn't equal the number of a certain model Chevy sold ...not to mention the similar format so many domestic cars share.

now i don't like that the parts diagrams are being limited.

"Is it illegal if the images in question are redrawn?

I'd be willing to lend some time reconstructing some of the images in AutoCAD or whatever if it's any help."

There's nothing preventing someone from redrawing an illustration or tweaking it so it looks slightly different. It just can't be an exact copy. There's a lot of leeway to create a "new" drawing from an existing one and much easier than starting from scratch. However, how many parts are there in a 911? Plenty. If someone has the time and/or budget, it's possible to attempt to redraw the parts shown in PET.

Sherwood