I Proved to Trekkor the Bible is NOT 100% Accurate!

[the]

In another thread, Trekkor claims the Bible is 100% accurate, free from any error, either in transcript, translation or fact.

The challenge:

Originally Posted by trekkor

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it.

The Bible is 100% accurate.
I'll add, no man can prove otherwise.

Originally Posted by the

Really? There are NO errors of fact, transcription, translation, or anything else?

Originally Posted by trekkor

If there were, you wouldn't be asking me that question, you'd be pointing them out.

OK, so the challenge is framed. No errors of fact, transcription, translation or anything else. 100% accurate.

My offered proof:

Originally Posted by the

Just a couple:

2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..."

1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."

One of those has to be an error - they can't both be correct.

Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..." Hare do not chew cud.

Trek thinks about it for a couple days, finally coming up with a somewhat odd response:

Originally Posted by trekkor

I saw your post.
It's inconclusive.

I'm not going to respond to it in this thread, however.

You are welcome to pose the question and produce your evidence in another thread and I will engage you...

So, here we are!

[kstar]

The "horseman" passage is a "double-truth" a la Orwell.

Best,

Kurt

[trekkor]

HARE

[Heb., ’ar·ne′veth].

A gnawing animal of the Leporidae family, closely related to but larger than the rabbit. It differs from the latter in that its young are usually not born in an underground burrow, are active at birth, fully furred, and have open eyes. The hare is known by its divided lip, long ears, cocked tail, and its long hind limbs and feet, so useful for a speedy escape from its enemies. The fastest hares are said to attain a speed of as much as 70 km/hr (43 mph). The average length of the animals, of which there are numerous varieties, is about 0.6 m (2 ft). Their usual coloration is grayish or brownish.

The hare was prohibited as food under the Law given through Moses and is referred to as a chewer of the cud. (Le 11:4, 6; De 14:7) Hares and rabbits, of course, do not have a multichambered or multiparted stomach and do not regurgitate their food for rechewing, which characteristics are associated with the scientific classification of ruminants or cud chewers. Nevertheless, although the Hebrew term here used for chewing literally means “bringing up,” the modern scientific classification was not the basis for what the Israelites in Moses’ day understood ‘cud chewing’ to be. Hence, there is no foundation for judging the accuracy of the Bible statement by the restricted, relatively recent conception of what constitutes a cud-chewing animal, as done by many critics.

In the past, commentators with faith in the inspiration of the Bible record saw no error in the statement of the Law. Observed The Imperial Bible-Dictionary: “It is obvious that the hare does in repose chew over and over the food which it has some time taken; and this action has always been popularly considered a chewing of the cud. Even our poet Cowper, a careful noticer of natural phenomena, who has recorded his observations on the three hares which he had domesticated, affirms that they ‘chewed the cud all day till evening.’”—Edited by P. Fairbairn, London, 1874, Vol. I, p. 700.

Scientific observation of hares and rabbits in more recent years, however, indicates that even more than seeming cud chewing is involved. Writes François Bourlière (The Natural History of Mammals, 1964, p. 41): “The habit of ‘refection,’ or passing the food twice through the intestine instead of only once, seems to be a common phenomenon in the rabbits and hares. Domestic rabbits usually eat and swallow without chewing their night droppings, which form in the morning as much as half the total contents of the stomach. In the wild rabbit refection takes place twice daily, and the same habit is reported for the European hare... It is believed that this habit provides the animals with large amounts of B vitamins produced by bacteria in the food within the large intestine.” On the same point, the work Mammals of the World (by E. P. Walker, 1964, Vol. II, p. 647) notes: “This may be similar to ‘chewing the cud’ in ruminant mammals.”


KT

[kstar]

I am either extremely shallow or that reply does not address how 700 and 7,000 are the same.

Playing devil's advocate (sorry) maybe a good excuse is these were two different events, 7,700 being the total number of horses David was to take?

Best,

Kurt

[trekkor]

At Helam the forces of Hadadezer under the command of Shobach (Shophach) met those of David and were defeated. Immediately afterward, Hadadezer’s vassals made peace with Israel. (2Sa 10:17-19; 1Ch 19:17-19) In the conflict 40,000 Syrian horsemen were killed. Perhaps in order to escape through rough terrain, these horsemen dismounted and were slain as footmen. This could account for their being called “horsemen” at 2*Samuel 10:18 and “men on foot” at 1*Chronicles 19:18. The difference in the number of Syrian charioteers killed in battle is usually attributed to scribal error, the lower figure of 700 charioteers being considered the correct one.

David also took much copper from Betah (apparently also called Tibhath) and Berothai (perhaps the same as Cun), two cities of Hadadezer’s realm, and brought the gold shields belonging to Hadadezer’s servants, probably the vassal kings, to Jerusalem. (2Sa 8:7,*8; 1Ch 18:7,*8; compare 2Sa 10:19.) David also captured many of Hadadezer’s horses, horsemen, chariots, and footmen. The variation in the enumeration of these at 2*Samuel 8:4 and 1*Chronicles 18:4 may have arisen through scribal error. In the Greek Septuagint both passages indicate that 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen were captured, and therefore 1*Chronicles 18:4 perhaps preserves the original reading.

However, it may be noted that what are commonly viewed as scribal errors in the account of David’s conflict with Hadadezer may simply reflect other aspects of the war or different ways of reckoning.


KT

[JV911SYDNEY]

imagine playing Chinese whispers for 2000 years with participants speaking a number of different languages...thats where we are with the bible

[the]

Originally Posted by trekkor

The difference in the number of Syrian charioteers killed in battle is usually attributed to scribal error, the lower figure of 700 charioteers being considered the correct one.

. . .

However, it may be noted that what are commonly viewed as scribal errors in the account of David’s conflict with Hadadezer may simply reflect other aspects of the war or different ways of reckoning.


KT

Thank you for conceding I am correct. Your own post concedes a "scribal error."

The Bible is not 100% accurate.

[craigster59]

Having never read the Bible, and not being very religious, I think I can take an objective point of view. The "David smote" quote could be printer error. The Hare/cud thing, rabbits chew like a cow when eating grass, so maybe that's the link? I'm going to go with "translation and transcription" , but those are weak examples (no offense).

[jeffgrant]

Game, set, match.

[the]

These are 2 verbatim statements:

2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..."

1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."

They CANNOT BOTH be correct. As your own post above says, the 7000 number is incorrect.

[the]

Originally Posted by craigster59

Having never read the Bible, and not being very religious, I think I can take an objective point of view. The "David smote" quote could be printer error.

Could be a printer error. Or translation. Or transcription. But it's still an error. No matter how it got there, it means the Bible is NOT 100% accurate. The reason for the inaccuracy is irrelevant. The Bible cannot have even one single error, and still be 100% accurate.

[jeffgrant]

Also, love them or hate them, Penn and Teller do a pretty good job of discussing the inaccuracies of the bible in this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E

[trekkor]

Read it again man with the name of 'the'...

I'm sure these verses have been troubling you


KT

[m21sniper]

I didn't see a who cares option...

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by JV911SYDNEY

imagine playing Chinese whispers for 2000 years with participants speaking a number of different languages...thats where we are with the bible

I have edited documents with far fewer people in far shorter timelines and of far less importance. It's a PITA. I'd have to say over the span of 2000 years, something might have been incorrectly transcribed, interpreted, recorded. Just a little.

[gprsh924]

The Bible is basically a big game of Telephone.

[the]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Read it again man with the name of 'the'...

I'm sure these verses have been troubling you


KT

The fact that there are factual errors in the Bible doesn't trouble probably 99.9999% of people, including religious people.

As pointed out by several above, just about no one would expect a book written by many different people, over 2000 years ago, trying to relay accounts of thousands of different and often complex events, translated from different languages, is going to be "100% accurate."

That is a very extreme position, held by very few. And it is incorrect, too.

[trekkor]

That's it... 'the'?


KT

[trekkor]

One of my favorites:

Jeremiah 10:23 "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

If man could actually govern himself, there would be your proof.


KT

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by trekkor

That's it... 'the'?


KT

A wise man once told me, "if you lie, make sure no one can verify it, like, I slept with Marilyn Monroe, she's dead, prove I'm lying"

Considering the age of the document it's hard to determine it's accuracy one way or the other unless it does something like contradict itself.

So acknowledging a "typo" is admitting that the document may not be 100% accurate. This was just an obvious inaccuracy and proves itself.

Reminds me of The Far Side cartoon where God is playing Jeapordy and the score is God some ridiculous number and the opponents 0.

Gary Larson said that he had considered illustrating the other contestants with some low score but that would have indicated that God was fallible and he thought it wrong to have the creator being bested even once by his creation.