Pet issue continued... Dueller?
 

Here is an update on my issue with the vet last week which resulted in the death of my cat. I have had the records looked at by a medical professional and Eddie's blood sugar on admittance was actually HIGH at 449 and not low as they claimed.

They were giving Eddie Glucose even though her Glucose was way high!! Also they had her really drugged up, possibly unnecessarily so. So instead of insulin shock, she was probably in a diabetic coma and they treated her for the opposite of what she actually had. In addition there were all the unnecessary tests, cost etc. The whole thing stinks.

to Dueller...I tried to PM you but maybe you didnt get the PMs...is there any way that I could speak to your brother who is the veterinarian regarding putting together the court case on all of this?

Thx.

What state do you live in? I just settled litigation against my old vet. My Old English Sheepdog died from Immune Mediated Thrombocytapinia from vaccine reactions. In most states you are only entitled to the value of the pet because they are deemed property and punitive damages do not apply.

I didn't want to comment because I am way under-qualified to make a judgment... however from you description I was wondering exactly this... that maybe Eddie's blood sugar was high instead of low.

Im in CA...wrecktech. Just got off the phone with my normal vet, he is going to review the case for me...according to him he is not a really big fan of this clinic and didnt have a lot of good things to say about them.

Still, Dueller if you are out there and your bro wouldnt mind looking over the records too it would be appreciated and maybe i can compensate him for the hour that he would need to do that. Thx.

Sonic,
What you will need for the best results is a Vet who is Board Certified in Internal Medicine. They are out there. You might contact the Board of Examiners to help you find one. The more highly trained in Internal Med. the more credibility your case will have.

Having said that, though, I believe that here in Ca. pets are still considered property and that a jury is not likely to reward highly. I doubt that you want big bucks, though...just want them punished for what they did. Aside from court, the Board of Examiners can really hurt them if they want to.

Wish you the best...

Wait, I know the whole story isn't here, but you sued your vet for an autoimmune reaction to a vaccine in a breed that is pre-disposed to said autoimmune reaction? Hopefully your litigation was due to lack of treatment and not failed treatment since steroids and transfusions are pretty much the only thing that can be done and are not always successful. (BTW this is Wolfe's wife, who worked as a vet assistant for 5 years.) I am sorry for your loss, though.

Sadly in California courtrooms, a dog/cat is valued the way you'd price a toaster. It's considered simply as an object worth what it cost when new. I would hope there is a way to yank this vet's license Sonic. Then at least Eddie didn't die in vain and other critters may be spared his abuse.

I think New Jersey just passed legislation to grant animals/pets more rights and more value to their owners.

Thanks, my position is that the vaccinations provided no benefit only potential for harm to the dog and profit for the vet. In this case his income from unnecessary vaccinations was in the neighborhood of $350,000 annually. There was no "informed consent" He was vaccinated for canine distemper virus, canine parvovirus, canine adenovirus and corona virus as well as for rabies. Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus (MLV) vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (i.e., canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralize the antigens of the second vaccine and there is little or no effect. The titer is not 'boosted' nor are more memory cells induced. Therefore the vaccinations only do harm. The vet is a professional and should know this and inform his patient's owners. Severe conflict of interest. I prosecuted the litigation w/o an attorney, completely by myself, and it went on for almost 6 years before they finally settled because of the espense for his malpractice carrier and all the medical evidense supported my position. We were about 3 weeks away from the scheduled jury trial at the time. Hope this explains it better.


Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Ph.D..- "Annual revaccination provides no benefit and may increase the risk for adverse reactions. The percentage of vaccinated animals (those vaccinated only as puppies) protected from clinical disease after challenge with canine distemper virus, canine parvovirus and canine adenovirus in the study was greater than 95%." Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs. Dr. Charles E Loops DVM - "The first thing that must change with routine vaccinations is the myth that vaccines are not harmful. Veterinarians and animal guardians have to come to realise that they are not protecting animals from disease by annual vaccinations, but in fact, are destroying the health and immune systems of these same animals they love and care for Homeopathic veterinarians and other holistic practitioners have maintained for some time that vaccinations do more harm than they provide benefits. Vaccinations represent a major assault on the body's immune system.... Vaccine induced chronic diseases range from life-threatening conditions such as auto-immune crises to conditions destroying the quality of life of an animal as in chronic skin allergies."

Sonic...sorry, just saw your PM's and this thread. My brother is out of country fishing. Won't be back for another 2 weeks or so. I'll ask him when he gets back.

That being said, from a lawyer standpoint I agree with Dr Dogface. frpm an evidentiary standpoint, my bro's opinion would likely not be admissable as hearsay unless you had him to testify live. I think you be much better served getting a local vet or perhaps even your own vet to give a statement. It does sound like there might have been a malpractice based on the glucose tests.

Problem is as others state that you damages in the eyes of the law may be nominal; i;e;, the value of the animal. Have you thought about approaching it from a consumer protetction standpoint; i.e., price gouging etc? Just a hare brained thought.

Wreck,
So what did you gain by this spiteful exercise, besides high blood pressure and possibly an ulcer?

I practiced for nearly 40 years and never heard the theory advanced by this Dr. Schultz...nor ever heard of him. In years of continuing education conferences, sometimes lasting lasting weeks, this was never taught, nor is it today. Contact any Veterinary School around the world and see if any professional there agrees with this guy. Yeah, I know what your reply will be....money, money, money.

Glad you were never my client.

I guess I am glad you are not my vet and I feel sorry for your clients.

"It's hard to believe it'd be controversial to any DVM who's lived on earth for the past year or two. You'd have to be from outer space if you haven't heard about the issues," says Schultz. (DMVNews, Feb. 2003)

If you go to continuing education conferences you would have heard a Dr. Ford give lectures on this very subject. Do you read DMVNews? My litigation helped bring about "informed consent" requirements in a couple states. The largest veterinary insurer for malpractice no longer covers vets for fraud in unnecessary treatments. There are a lot of veterinary schools that have adopted this standard but I guess there is more money in it for you not to know anything about the subject. By the way how much is your annual income for administering canine distemper virus, canine parvovirus, canine adenovirus and corona virus? Do you give all the abovelisted vaccinations to your client's pets? Do you know that the AVMA Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents concluded that no research exists to support the present annual and prevailing recommendations? Never heard anything about it? Read these:

http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=46546

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jul03/030701o.asp

The AVMA concluded there is evidence that some vaccines provide immunity beyond one year. Revaccination of patients with sufficient immunity doesn't add measurably to their disease resistance, and unnecessary revaccination may increase the risk of adverse postvaccination events in some animals. While annual vaccinations have been highly successful in curbing disease, the one-year revaccination frequency recommendation found on many vaccine labels is based on historical precedent, not scientific data.


Infection with canine coronavirus alone has been associated with mild disease only, and only in dogs < 6 weeks of age. It has not been possible to reproduce the infection experimentally, unless immunosuppressive doses of glucocorticoids are administered. Serum antibodies do not correlate with resistance to infection, and duration of immunity is unknown. Vaccination against CPV protects puppies against challenge with both CCV and CPV. Therefore, the UC Davis VMTH does not routinely recommend vaccination against CCV and the vaccine is not stocked by our pharmacy.

Yea that was necessary for a 7 year old OESD in August in full coat and subject to heat stress.

Yeah, I know what your reply will be....money, money, money. Wow how wrong you are, the settlement money was less than the money spent for copies and mailings. Some people are willing to spend money to make positive change. To bad you are so shortsighted to realize that. So what did you gain by this spiteful exercise of a response that shows your ignorance?

What is this going to change?

You know, there's still a chance you guys can discuss this topic without trying to inter-slap each other. Maybe you will both learn something. And no, nobody cares who 'started it.'

Sorry bout your kitty, Sonic.

It's a matter of degree. Yes, vaccine protocols have changed in the past few years, but not to the degree you propose...once in a lifetime? Of course I've heard of the issue but not to your extreme. We all, or most of us, always warn of possible adverse reactions...always...and reasonable pet owners accept that these things can happen without going ballistic as you did. Do you think your vet knew this was gonna happen..or even thought it mildly likely?

A huge percentage of vaccine reactions are so mild as to hardly be noticed...mild fever and/or malaise for a day or so. I'm sorry that your dog had such a terrible reaction, if indeed it was caused by the vaccine...was that ever proven? Such things do occur from other causes. Most knowledgeable/reasonable pet owners realize that medicine is not totally predictable....biological systems differ... It's not like rebuilding a carburetor on a Chevy. You sound educated enough to know that.

Just FYI, I practiced for nearly 40 years and never had any such action or complaints to licensing boards, local associations or anything like it. So don't feel sorry for my clients. They were well served and happy.

I'm glad that some good came of your exercise, at least in your eyes, and I too am sorry for your loss....let's move on.

my cats are indoor only and haven't been to a vet in years. I feed them quite food and fresh water. If they get ill I'll take them in.

My ex's dad was a vet and cell biology researcher (under achiever). He thought that pets tend to be "over doctored."

Thx for the responses everyone. Hey Dueller, I was just wondering if I could use that thing that your brother wrote last week concerning the bill. Perhaps he would consider putting it into an affidavit form with his name on it. I would submit that to show in lieu of actual testimony which wouldnt be necessary. I could use that to pursue the price gouging/run up the bill perspective. Anyway thanks for asking him, please PM me to let me know.

I spoke with my normal vet yesterday and he is going to look over the records for me. He didnt have much positive to say about that clinic and he doesnt have a relationship with them which would keep him from being honest about what happened.

Im not a letigious person, but in this case im strongly considering going forward because my situation with them is not unique as they have a pattern of overbilling and questionable care. someone has to stand up to them at some point and im not happy about the way things were handled by them at all.

Will do, Sonic. ' be glad to help any way I can. However a sworn affidavit is still hearsay in most cases as it can't be cross-examined by the accused.:( Plus what is a reasonable and customary charge in So GA is probably irrelevant to R/C in Cali.

If you could find a text book in vet medicine re: the actions in a test for blood sugar and the appropriate protocol you could get around hearsay on a learned treatise exception. When my bro gets nack I'll check with him. Let us know what your vet says. Hopefully he'll be willing to offer an opinion to support your case.

I would say from a litigation standpoint you should not be charged for the care they provided, I'm not sure I would be going after damages so much as erasing that bill.

I have moved on but still do not care for your "going ballistic" type of references. From the initial vaccination to his death took 10 days during which time he was misdiagnosed an additional 2 times and received the wrong treatment. Immune mediated thrombocytopenia is a terrible death. The platelets die off and blood does not clot. He bled to death internally from hemorrhagic diarrhea. It was a terrible sight and was very traumatic to my 85 year old mother as he was her constant companion. The vet took an oh well attitude and couldn't care less. He had administered all the vaccines in 90 degree weather and I was told the were required by law. At the time I knew nothing about vaccines or vet medicine. I do know I only got one polio vaccine and it was good for life as are most human vaccines. I have probably 100 articles on the subject, many that state that studies have shown that boosters are scientifically proven to be without benefit. I am certain he died from the vaccine reaction as was his malpractice insurer. I further learned that OESDs are predisposed to autoimmune reactions as WolfeMacleod's wife, a vet assistant was aware of and posted same. He was a Purdue graduate vet so he should have known. If you care to do some reading check out the articles below. To him it was simply a business decision with virtually no risk.


Dogs with IMT die from hemorrhagic diarrhea.

Reference:

Tizard, Ian R, Veterinary Immunology an Introduction, Sixth Ed, WB Saunders

Autoimmune thrombocytopenia, pg 381.

The graph on the his laboratory test results, shows a graph of the mean platelet volume. The first up swing on that graph represents a population of very small platelets. Such a population of small platelets is absolutely indicative of immune mediated thrombocytopenia.Reference:

“Decreased MPV in thrombocytopenic dogs has been associated with IMT.”
Willard, Tvedten, Turnwald, Small Animal Diagnosis by Laboratory Methods, 3RD Ed, WB Saunders Co. 1999, pg 78.

No abnormal findings are recorded on the medical records by the vet from any physical exam performed on 8/09/2001, prior to vaccinating him, most specifically no enlarged lymph nodes and no enlargement of the spleen is indicated. The combination Lyme, Heartworm, Ehrlichia test performed by the vet was negative.There is no history of any drugs administered to him that are known to cause thrombocytopenia.

This was a very personnal issue for me. It irritates me that many (not claiming you are guilty of this) professionals are only "practicing" and fail to keep up with the times and standards (See “The T.J. Hooper case”) while they hold everyone else to a higher standard. Had I been told that these vaccinations were not required by law or necessary I would have declined them being given and our OESD would not have died.

Ok....you got the last word. I'm fine with that...