Paradox of service; US Jewish soldiers in the mideast

[kach22i]

I have read before (a few years ago) that many mid-east countries request that the US not use troops of Jewish faith as they could not guarantee their safety and feared the political outfall. Until I saw this hillside display I assumed such requests were being met, that was a mistake.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

A memorial in Lafayette, CA to the troops lost inIraq. Click on the image for a hi-res version...

Article-1:
Being Jewish adds risk for soldiers, journalists in Iraq
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/20074/edition_id/409/format/html/displaystory.html
MICHAEL J. JORDAN
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Friday April 4, 2003

"What is your religion?" a beaten, bloodied and blindfolded Marine Capt. Michael Craig Berryman was asked, according to testimony from Jan. 28, 1991.

"Baptist," he replied.

"No, you are a Jew!" they screamed.................."The Iraqis were apparently unaware that many American males are circumcised, regardless of their religious beliefs," Moore said.

Article-2:
Jewish Soldiers in Iraq Celebrate Holidays in Saddam's Former Palace
http://www.ujc.org/page.html?ArticleID=47185
Joe Berkofsky

More than 100 Jewish members of the U.S. forces stationed in Iraq attended the High Holiday services at the former Iraqi dictator's Baghdad compound.......................
Generally Iraqis welcomed the U.S. forces, he said, and he made a point of telling many of them he was a Jew who "put my life on the line to free their country."

Typically, he said, that declaration met a "sour" reception, with many Iraqis blanching and walking away or asking him to leave a house where he had been welcomed moments before.

Article-3
From the NYT way back in 1991.
Exhibit Examines Difficulties Facing Jewish Troops in Gulf
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7D91330F93BA25750C0A9679582 60
By IRVIN MOLOTSKY, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: March 18, 1991

One letter, from Staff Sgt. Alan Adler, a marine from Toms River, N.J., to his rabbi, spoke of the paradox of his service. "You know the world political situation is changing when Jewish guys are standing in defense of Saudi Arabia," he said. "When I returned from Israel in 1979, I would never have believed that I'd be involved in a situation such as this."..................

I have started this thread not to bash anyone, but to marvel at the paradox of service troops of Jewish faith must be experiencing.

I marvel and are somewhat puzzled by our mission and purpose in Iraq in general.

Iraq, a country we fought and paid to have to destroyed, and now fight, die and pay to build better than new, and all the reasons for this have fluttered away in elusiveness many times over.

The paradox of Christians and Jews and even other Muslims in US uniform, serving in a country which by any public opinion poll taken over there does not want us to stay.

Be political if you want, but there is an awe and beauty to this paradox.

[Tobra]

So George, if this is of interest to you, what do you think of this:

Mr Obama converted to Christianity, famously brought into the fold by Mr Wright. As a former Muslim, if he were to visit a Muslim country, they would be obligated by their faith to kill him.

If he is elected, do you think this would adversely impact his ability to carry out foreign policy?

[id10t]

Nope, but it will make the secret service guys jobs a lot more interesting...

Originally Posted by Tobra

So George, if this is of interest to you, what do you think of this:

Mr Obama converted to Christianity, famously brought into the fold by Mr Wright. As a former Muslim, if he were to visit a Muslim country, they would be obligated by their faith to kill him.

If he is elected, do you think this would adversely impact his ability to carry out foreign policy?

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Tobra

So George, if this is of interest to you, what do you think of this:

Mr Obama converted to Christianity, famously brought into the fold by Mr Wright. As a former Muslim, if he were to visit a Muslim country, they would be obligated by their faith to kill him.

If he is elected, do you think this would adversely impact his ability to carry out foreign policy?

I can find no evidence that Obama was "born a Muslim". I can find evidence that his biological father was.

Link-1:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080216101457AAIUJvp

Link-2: Prior religion undetermined
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity

As for the "obligated by their faith to kill him", are you suggesting that the two Muslim factions involved in Iraq's civil war (one Moe's brother followers, the other a cousin or son - I really don't give a ....) will somehow determine that he favors one brand of nuts over the other brand of nuts? I just don't follow you Torba.

Last remark:

If he is elected, do you think this would adversely impact his ability to carry out foreign policy?

The "this" being a false implication of formerly being Muslim, right? I'm sure half-way across the world there is a Muslim version of you Torba, I ask you to seek this person out and ask HIM the same silly questions.

My question - religion aside:
Have US soldiers ever been asked to fight and die for a country we just defeated?

I'm straining to answer this. I think we must have intervened or taken sides in other countries Civil Wars before, but that is not the question.

[legion]

And I'm sure Hillary would settle for VP knowing that so many people are "gunning" for Obama...

[azasadny]

When you join the US military, there are no exemptions for religious beliefs. You server where and when you're ordered to and no religious belief exemts you from service. Nobody has been drafted, everyone is a volunteer in our military...

[Tobra]

That is an awful lot of typing to not say anything George. Next time just say, "I choose not to respond," it is a bit more honest and straight forward.

I don't believe I said he was born a Muslim, but that is immaterial.

It is pretty simple, it is not a Sunni vs Shia thing, it is a Muslim vs Everyone Else thing. An infidel who had been a Muslim is considered worse than someone who had always been an infidel, and the Peace Lovers are supposed to kill them.








The answer to your question is yes

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by azasadny

When you join the US military, there are no exemptions for religious beliefs. You server where and when you're ordered to and no religious belief exemts you from service. Nobody has been drafted, everyone is a volunteer in our military...

Granted, I understand that. I also understand that some countries may make certain "request" and in other situations there may be a prudent thing to do.

Here is a quick and perhaps lame example I just made up:
Lets say there is a known KKK member sniper in a campus clock tower. The US government sends in a bunch of troops to close off the area and get students out. As the commander would you staff African American soldiers as guards at the entry? I would think that because of the color of their skin they would quickly become the favorite target of the KKK gunman (if in range). Any soldier may be a target, but why inflame the situation and make it easy?

I have seen on TV (perhaps the History Channel) that in WWII American troops of Japanese bloodlines were sent to the European theater so they would be less likely victims of friendly fire.

I'm just seeking to make the same rational here or at lest see it is a rational expectation.
.................................................. ...............

EDIT: Better Example

The story of "BIG BRIAN" Vietnam Vet;
Big Brian is about 7'-5" tall. When his flight arrived in Vietnam and the planes rear door lowered his commanding officer took one look at him and said; Soldier - Get back on that plane!

The explanation was he would not make it off the airport grounds alive, he was just too big and tempting of a target.

Big Brian served out his duty state side.

This is a true story told to me by Big Brian himself and the two Vietnam Vets in my work building.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Tobra

That is an awful lot of typing to not say anything George. Next time just say, "I choose not to respond," it is a bit more honest and straight forward.

I don't believe I said he was born a Muslim, but that is immaterial.

It is pretty simple, it is not a Sunni vs Shia thing, it is a Muslim vs Everyone Else thing. An infidel who had been a Muslim is considered worse than someone who had always been an infidel, and the Peace Lovers are supposed to kill them.

The answer to your question is yes

You proclaimed him to be "a former Muslim" which "converted to Christianity".

He was never Muslim.

How can one "convert" if they were "undecided" or "non-practicing" before?

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Religion can be a confusing, dangerous thing...

-Wayne

Some mornings I wake up and I'm not sure who to hate.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by kach22i

You proclaimed him to be "a former Muslim" which "converted to Christianity".

He was never Muslim.

How can one "convert" if they were "undecided" or "non-practicing" before?

He says in his book that he was a muslim. He talks about getting into trouble for clowning around in Koranic studies classes.

I think you should read his book.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

He says in his book that he was a muslim. He talks about getting into trouble for clowning around in Koranic studies classes.

I think you should read his book.

I'm not going to take your word for it - I mean no disrespect.

I've read books by Paul Tsongas, Howard Dean and Bill Richardson. I don't want to jinx Obama by reading his book too.

[m21sniper]

Read his book, and you can take his word for it.

B.Hussien is a Xtian converted from Islam.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Read his book, and you can take his word for it.

B.Hussien is a Xtian converted from Islam.

You have the book, right?

Give me a page number and I'll look it up at the book store tonight.

[m21sniper]

Sure, i have the books of all the people that run for the presidency...

No, i do not own the book, i am relying on the numerous editorials and pundits who i have heard quote the relevant passages from his book.

Perhaps they are all mistaken.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Perhaps they are all mistaken.

That is the correct answer.

Please do your own verification, trust no one...............and follow the money.

[kach22i]

UPDATE: I was very confused why in the Random Pictures You Have Taken my words were twisted into something I never even thought of before (by Edt82sc, Teenerted1, and Daepp).

Link:
random pics that YOU have taken.......

I honestly had no idea why I was being attacked. Some really crazy comments which had nothing to do with my post were made. I had to find out why this happened as no reasons were given to me, and no explanation offered.

After doing some research I think I figured it out. I really wish people would explain what's in their heads instead of making stupid comments and meaningless attacks, we are adults.

This is what I found:

David Duke
http://www.davidduke.com/general/the-jewish-casualty-rate-in-iraq_361.html

Jewish supremacists are too busy launching and cheerleading U.S. wars to do the actual fighting themselves. That’s something for the Gentiles to worry about.

Did you really think that knowing about the leaders of Arab nations requesting that Jews (even if in US uniform) not set foot on their soil had anything to do with any possible anti-semitism on my part? You have to be kidding me.

I also found this, which seems to be an isolated death:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0604/jewish_servicemen.php3

Wershow was guarding a detail of civilian Americans meeting with Iraqi university officials when he left the meeting, after two hours, to get a soft drink. He was fatally shot in the back of the neck by a gunman on the campus. The gunman escaped in the confusion that followed the shooting. Senator Bill Nelson of Florida called Wershow's death "an assassination."

Now to give you a couple of examples of when and where the US has bent to the request of Arab leaders, I provide the following link and quote.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/995

Consider two symbolic moments in the U.S.-Saudi relationship involving a visit by one leader to the other's country. In November 1990, President George H.W. Bush went to the Persian Gulf region with his wife and top congressional leaders at Thanksgiving time to visit the 400,000 troops gathered in Saudi Arabia, whom he sent there to protect that country from an Iraqi invasion. When the Saudi authorities learned that the President intended to say grace before a festive Thanksgiving dinner, they remonstrated; Saudi Arabia knows only one religion, they said, and that is Islam. Bush acceded, and he and his entourage instead celebrated the holiday on the U.S.S. Durham, an amphibious cargo ship sitting in international waters.

In April 2002, as Crown Prince Abdallah of Saudi Arabia, the country's effective ruler, was about to travel across Texas to visit President George W. Bush, an advance group talked to the airport manager in Waco (the airport serving the President's ranch in Crawford) "and told him they did not want any females on the ramp and also said there should not be any females talking to the airplane."[2] The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) at Waco complied with this request and passed it to three other FAA stations on the crown prince's route, which also complied. Then, when queried about this matter, both the FAA and the State Department joined the Saudi foreign minister in flat-out denying that there ever was a Saudi request for male-only controllers.

There are plenty of articles on the Internet about religious services for Jewish US service men/women having to be held in secret, the paradox of this I still find interesting as I get to learn more about human nature and maybe what America stands for in an upside down world.

In conclusion: Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions and make assumptions, and give people a little room to learn something new. Try giving the benefit of a doubt once in a while, you may be pleasantly surprised. The harder you come down on people, the more you drive them away.

[azasadny]

Originally Posted by kach22i

UPDATE: I was very confused why in the Random Pictures You Have Taken my words were twisted into something I never even thought of before (by Edt82sc, Teenerted1, and Daepp).

Link:
random pics that YOU have taken.......

I honestly had no idea why I was being attacked. Some really crazy comments which had nothing to do with my post were made. I had to find out why this happened as no reasons were given to me, and no explanation offered.

After doing some research I think I figured it out. I really wish people would explain what's in their heads instead of making stupid comments and meaningless attacks, we are adults.

This is what I found:

David Duke
http://www.davidduke.com/general/the-jewish-casualty-rate-in-iraq_361.html


Did you really think that knowing about the leaders of Arab nations requesting that Jews (even if in US uniform) not set foot on their soil had anything to do with any possible anti-semitism on my part? You have to be kidding me.

I also found this, which seems to be an isolated death:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0604/jewish_servicemen.php3


Now to give you a couple of examples of when and where the US has bent to the request of Arab leaders, I provide the following link and quote.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/995


There are plenty of articles on the Internet about religious services for Jewish US service men/women having to be held in secret, the paradox of this I still find interesting as I get to learn more about human nature and maybe what America stands for in an upside down world.

In conclusion: Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions and make assumptions, and give people a little room to learn something new. Try giving the benefit of a doubt once in a while, you may be pleasantly surprised. The harder you come down on people, the more you drive them away.

Just for the record, I was in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for Thanksgiving 1990 and President bush, his wife and entourage all had a Thanksgiving meal with us in the field and there were prayers before the meal. BTW, Saudis were present (King Fahd and others)

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Just for the record, I was in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for Thanksgiving 1990 and President bush, his wife and entourage all had a Thanksgiving meal with us in the field and there were prayers before the meal. BTW, Saudis were present (King Fahd and others)

Thanks Art, I for sure take your word for it.

I'm guessing that there were several Thanksgivings for the President, I know I've gone to two or three in a single day. The President was probably also on the ship and the author of the article Daniel Pipes made a wrong conclusion. Consider the source and their motives.

Daniel Pipes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Daniel Pipes (born September 9, 1949) is a neoconservative[1] American historian and political commentator who specializes in the Middle East and Islam..................

........The Forward, a Jewish publication, named Pipes as one of America's "50 Most Influential Jews"

His commentary is footnoted, but not the passage in question.