Pelican Parts Forums

Pelican Parts Forums (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/)
-   Off Topic Discussions (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/)
-   -   More on Ethanol Scam (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/410670-more-ethanol-scam.html)

Red Baron 05-22-2008 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s (Post 3958843)
\\

Ethanol = 75,670 BTU's per gallon

Gasoline = 115,400 BTU's per gallon

These figures from a sidebar in the original article. I'll let the math whizzes here figure the % age...the sidebar says that a gallon of pure ethanol will take you 66% of the distance a gallon of gas will.

I gotta wonder how much Archer-Daniel-Midlands donates to political campaigns...?

Damn! That would appear even higher than 20% less. However much it is, IMO it's a bad idea and far from the solution.

jyl 05-22-2008 08:06 PM

The car we drive the most is fine to run on E10, per the owners' manual. If we get 3% lower MPG, that'll be an additional $16/yr. So, I guess I don't care.

Hmm, but will we get only 3% less? Or worse? I guess I will start paying close attention. Thanks for mentioning this, pwd.

pwd72s 05-23-2008 09:02 AM

update
 
Today's lead editorial in the Portland Yellow Pages. You need to know that this paper's slant is left...

Ted's great adventure
Oregon's governor bets his legacy -- and your tax money -- on producing a homegrown supply of energy
Friday, May 23, 2008
The Oregonian
T ed Kulongoski can occasionally seem, well, distracted. But make no mistake, when it comes to his legacy, Oregon's governor is totally focused. Convinced he can pioneer a path to an America less dependent on foreign oil, Kulongoski has hitched his place-in-history wagon to going domestic green.

We're hard pressed to think of a more historic -- or more timely -- gubernatorial bequest. It's increasingly clear that this nation's economic future hinges on making smarter use of its share of global energy.

Kulongoski anointed one key ingredient to fuel this first phase of his journey: ethanol. Turns out he could hardly have made a more controversial choice.

Renewable energy advocates once hailed American ethanol -- distilled mostly from Midwest corn -- as the Holy Grail. It is homegrown. It burns cleanly. Best of all, it reappears each harvest. That's why, as recently as last year, when he signed the legislative bill mandating all gasoline pumped in Oregon to contain 10 percent ethanol, Kulongoski's green legacy seemed assured.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the service station. Overnight, this biofuel became the whipping boy for a host of social ills. The charge: Ethanol hurts more than it helps.

Some studies suggest that planting corn, fertilizing it, harvesting and processing it actually consumes more energy than it yields. Others insist the global rush to grow fuel is gobbling up forests, releasing into the air far more carbon than is spared by burning biofuels rather than gasoline.

Translation: Ethanol may be destroying the planet in order to save it.

Adding political insult to environmental injury, activists insist soaring ethanol demand is causing a spike in corn prices, sending through commodity markets the global ripple that has sparked food riots from Pakistan to Mexico, Indonesia to Egypt.

Then there's the still-raging debate over the extent to which ethanol reduces a vehicle's miles-per-gallon efficiency, an extent drivers experience every time they fill the tank.

All this surely is enough to give a governor sleepless nights. Especially because Kulongoski is more than an early adopter of ethanol. He's a major investor. What he's been investing is your money.

Millions of taxpayer dollars jump-started plans to manufacture ethanol in Boardman and Clatskanie. And the governor insists he's not done yet.

This likely explains why in Salem all sorts of hope -- even before Oregon's second ethanol plant comes fully on line -- now is being pinned on something called cellulosic technologies. Goodbye, corn. Hello, sawdust and switchgrass. Welcome, wood chips and wheat straw. You, too, cheese whey.

Pacific Ethanol just received $24 million from the federal Department of Energy for a demonstration cellulosic fuel project at its Boardman plant. The company hopes to cook a cocktail of wood chips from a nearby poplar plantation and straw from Columbia River basin wheat fields. It needs to do so quickly. And profitably. And in bulk.

The bottom line: What Kulongoski has going here is one enormous gamble. If fresh technologies fail to come on line fast enough, he -- and his legacy -- risk getting lost in the maize.



©2008 The Oregonian

onewhippedpuppy 05-23-2008 09:56 AM

Had the politicians consulted an engineer and an economist, they could have discovered all of this in about 5 minutes for a few hundred dollars. Several years and millions later.........

Mule 05-23-2008 09:57 AM

Quit talking nonsense!http://www.914club.com/bbs2/style_em...t/boldblue.gif

jyl 06-08-2008 07:50 PM

OK, my best estimate so far is that the new E10 gasoline is not doing much to my MPG around town, but is lowering my MPG materially on extended freeway runs.

Around town, we are getting 43-45 MPG, same as last year this time. Maybe a touch lower, at most 1 MPG change anyway. So, that suggests a 1% to 2% hit.

But I just drove from Portland to Olympia and back, averaged 53 MPG, I should have been more like 55-56 MPG. So that suggests a 4% hit.

Makes sense, in town the gasoline engine is running less of the time, while on the freeway it is running almost all the time.

red-beard 06-09-2008 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s (Post 3958843)
\\

Ethanol = 75,670 BTU's per gallon

Gasoline = 115,400 BTU's per gallon

These figures from a sidebar in the original article. I'll let the math whizzes here figure the % age...the sidebar says that a gallon of pure ethanol will take you 66% of the distance a gallon of gas will.

I gotta wonder how much Archer-Daniel-Midlands donates to political campaigns...?

Actually, the reason that the E10 and E85 may not deliver the expected mileage is that Ethanol loves water. The above numbers are for anhydrous ethanol. If it contains 50% water, then the BTU numbers for the ethanol portion are 1/2.

I noticed the Mileage difference between Gasoline purchased in California (E10) and Arizona (5% MTBE), back when I lived there. And it was more than 3%.

RoninLB 06-09-2008 04:18 AM

maybe that once you develop a driving routine you maintain it?

if so then wouldn't you have to lean on the gas pedal a little more with E10?

Mule 06-09-2008 05:07 AM

The corn lobby has screwed the sugar cane farmers so now it's on to the rest of America!

jyl 06-09-2008 05:17 AM

I think that's right. You maintain the same speed that you're used to, regardless of fuel. I guess watching the MPG display tends to slow me down a bit, but realistically you have to drive a certain speed to keep up with traffic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoninLB (Post 3991885)
maybe that once you develop a driving routine you maintain it?

if so then wouldn't you have to lean on the gas pedal a little more with E10?


Rot 911 06-09-2008 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mule (Post 3991941)
The corn lobby has screwed the sugar cane farmers so now it's on to the rest of America!


Not to worry. Corn prices will probably come down by the end of summer. Missouri has an E10 mandate for the entire states. Ethanol plants are in abundance here. Only problem is that they are already creating more ethanol than can be used. There will be an enormous glut of ethanol, with no buyers, by the end of the summer.

RoninLB 06-09-2008 06:53 AM

great news on E production.

now we can have E-15 or E-20

pwd72s 06-09-2008 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoninLB (Post 3992131)
great news on E production.

now we can have E-15 or E-20

Oh, the joy...guess carb cars can always run bigger jets. But the CIS guys? The MFI guys? I wish them luck as the alcohol content climbs. Me? Think I'll just be buying the new computer controlled machines in the hope they'll run on whatever the government mandates.

Still wavering between something semi-hot like the new Challenger...or perhaps just give up, buy any ol' caca box as "who cares" transportation? Off the list...anything Porsche makes new.

(edit) I'm in mourning. The era of the automobile as a pleasure machine seem to be nearing it's death rattle.
It was great while it lasted.

Tim L 06-09-2008 12:36 PM

There is a point where ethanol is not soluble in gasoline so I donít think we will se E-15 or E-20. Thatís why the jump to E-85 now the gasoline is soluble in the ethanol.

The Gaijin 06-09-2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim L (Post 3992792)
There is a point where ethanol is not soluble in gasoline so I donít think we will se E-15 or E-20. Thatís why the jump to E-85 now the gasoline is soluble in the ethanol.

I thought that was vermouth.:confused:

tabs 06-09-2008 12:42 PM

Does anybody wana guess which Political candidate running for Prez is FOR Ethanol? One Guess 50 % chance of getting it right.... hint which one is from the midwest?

RWebb 06-09-2008 10:02 PM

Paul - new Challenger is in this month's R&T.

Cellulosic EtOH is being worked on from many angles. IT has the potential to greatly reduce our need for foreign oil. It will take years if not decades to do this however. Guv. K. is on the right track I think. But the results will happen long after he is out of office.

A side benefit is that EtOH offers lower pollution than gas.

I love burning gas in my old 911. But we have too many people on this planet. That's the bottom line.

1fastredsc 06-09-2008 11:18 PM

I actually posted an article on it about 5 months ago here but no one bothered to read it. Cellulosic uses wastes such as wood, corn stalk, and switch grass and is leagues more efficient in processing then making ethanol the good ol fashion way (fermentation). Also MIT has done some testing with ethanol and found that if engines with increased compression that take advantage of the large octane rating are used instead of gasoline converted engines, then the drop in energy content of the fuel is balanced with the increase in thermodynamic efficiency of the higher compression.
One more thing, the ethanol being used in the C6R's e85, as well as the e10 for everyone else racing in the ALMS is cellulosic ethanol.

EDIT: Forgot to add though, there still would never be enough to feed the nations powering needs, in my opinion. However it could make one hell of a race fuel for the older cars :). Also Lubemaster, i have a friend with a drag rail that runs on alcohol. He says that he uses brad penn oil as it's the only one that takes well to running alcohol in his BBC. If you could find some information maybe you can share why that is?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website


DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.