LSAT prep coarses

[126coupe]

Any legal types there or parents of prospective law students?
My daughter is going to law school in a year (senior in college)
So many options for LSAT ( law school aptitude test) prep schools.
Any recommendations?

[Rot 911]

I just went to the book store and got a couple of the LSAT practice books read them and did lots of practice tests in the books. Have her go through a couple of them first and see how she does. Like the name says, it is an "aptitude test." Your mind either works that way or it doesn't. The test questions are not like anything she will have seen before.

[competentone]

I think you mean "courses," not "coarses."

My wife went to the Kaplan course before taking the LSAT. She says it was a complete waste of time. The instructors she had were extremely poor. For example, the guy who was supposed to teach logic didn't know the basis rules of logic, my wife had to teach the rules of logic to the class.

The LSAT is more like an aptitude test, so preparing for it in a course situation isn't necessarily real useful. My wife says to know how to manage your time effectively for the test.

Also, your daughter should take a college-level logic course if she hasn't already had it; take the logic course as close to taking the LSAT as possible.

Any practice tests would be helpful so she knows what she'll be looking at for the real test. "Familiarity" will help to reduce anxiety about the test.

[MRM]

I bought several prep books but didn't take any courses. In my experience, the only good the prep books did for me was they familiarized me with the test so I didn't have to spend time reading the instructions, and gave me some comfort level of knowing what was coming. I actually did worse on the logic portion after going through the test books, but I might have improved in the other areas. Overall, it was at best a wash. The best part of any of the books was that one of them had the average GPA and LSAT score of their entering classes, and I used that to help select schools for applications.

The most helpful thing was that the LSAT people publish a sample test. I think it was an old test that's now made public. The questions on that were slightly harder and subtly different that the test prep companies' questions. It is useful to spend time with the real sample test to figure out what they are asking with their questions and whay the right answer is correct, and why the others are wrong. It is also useful to compare the real test questions to the prep course questions and figure out why they are different.

Ultimately, the LSAT is simple. It is a matter of picking the answer that doesn't belong out of four answers that look the same. Three of them are the same: they are wong. One is different and that is the right answer.

[ramonesfreak]

I used Kaplan. it was a long time ago, but knowing me, i would never have earned a decent score without the course. i hated school. hated studying and still do. it was helpful to get me to focus on the "style" of questions one sees on the LSAT. very odd. whatever it cost, for me it was worth it. ....though looking back, i wish like hell i got a zero

note: i was 20 years old when i took the test. ..those who are older and wizer probably would do fine without the course if they are more serious about the test than i was

[HardDrive]

I was a center manager for Kaplan in the Chicago area. My wife also worked for Kaplan.

I have basically nothing good to say about them. Test prep organizations are run on a shoe string. Lots of time spent getting people in the front door, very little spent training or investing in instructors. I think it would be unfair to label all of the instructors as bad, because I worked with some brilliant people. But it is damn hard to keep instructors in the classroom given the peanuts you pay them. It leads to putting some very sketchy people in charge of classrooms.

I am rather proud of the fact that I got fired from that ***** hole.

I would recommend your daughter buy a book (Kaplans books were actually quite good), and get the previous years tests, as they are released. Some quiz software that simulates the test is nice as well, because then she gets familar with the test environment, and she can also use it in 'flash card' mode. If she wants more human interaction, perhaps she can find an LSAT study group at her school?

EDIT: Oh yes, and for the record, I got a 790 out of 800 on my GRE logic section

[126coupe]

The University of SF Law School is tough, only 27% get accepted, 700 students. they like to see 3.5-5.4 GPA w a LSAT score of 161. My daughter should graduate w a 4.0 from SFSU in communications, which is good, my problem is or should I say her problem is she is not a good test taker under pressure. her SAT's were not great, even though she went to both a private junior high school and a private Catholic High school w high gpa's 3.85. The tuition is out of site 30-40K a semester, I guess what I am saying I am making a serious investment in my only child, Get this studio apt near USF 475 square feet 1900 per month ouch, 225 to park her car per month.

[HardDrive]

Sounds like your a great dad to me.

[ramonesfreak]

from what i recall, law schools are interested in the overall person. not just the LSAT...though the score should be within the schools expectations. Looking back, im not sure what the LSAT did other than weed out those who were not serious about the process. there is nothing about law school, and certainly nothing about practicing law that is similar to the LSAT.

Others say Kaplan sucked. I recall my teacher being very very spastic and obsessed about getting a perfect score. He took it very seriously and it helped me. i would take it, regardless. you get out of it what you put in.

Law school is NOTHING like college. Most law schools will warn you of that during the first day of orientation. She MUST be, or learn to be as I did, totally disciplined and self-starting when it comes to preparation and learning and severe pressure every day. I could have gotten a 4.0 in college without ever leaving my bed compared to what law school took to do well.

I say take the course. she will get used to pressure but with some structure and will feel the seriousness of this very very life altering path she is about to take.

[126coupe]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Sounds like your a great dad to me.

Thanks Hard Drive, she needs to realize, and I think she does, that she can graduate from law school and have a great life without dealing w student loans. I know so many grads struggle to pay off that loan, but I planned for this since the day she was born.

[MRM]

Law school success can't be predicted by LSAT, intelligence or GPA. I read once that the best predictor was a combination of LSAT and GPA, weighed equally. There is almost a knack to learning the law. Once you get it the rest comes easy. All you have to do is master reading 500 pages a day, briefing a half dozen cases per class, and keepign up with your outline. but anyone with an iron butt can do that stuff. Not everyone who is willing to close out the library every night can get the knack. in my experience, the ones who tried the hardest tended to do the worst. I always through they were trying brute force when all they needed to do was sit and think a bit about why the answer was such and such. For what it's worth, I pretty much got the secret on the first day when I figured out no one else was smarter than me or had any special skills I didn't have, and that the rest was going to be a three year long hazing ritual. After that, I kind of liked it. it was like eating an all you can eat buffet without ever tasting anything great, but nothing bad, and never getting full for three years.

As an added comfort to your daughter, law schools care about grades more than LSATs. As further comfort, law schools play games with their acceptance rates. 27% isn't bad. Just tell her to beeee the test and she'll do just fine. The worst thing she can do is stress over it. If she walked in tomorrow and took the test for real with no pressure on herself, she'd probably score in the top 15%. If she stresses and acts like studying for the LSAT is like studying for the bar, she'll run out of the room screaming before she's half done.

One final thought. Why does she want to go to law school? I love it, but it is not for everyone. I can't count the number of people I met who went to law school and denied that they wanted to be lawyers, or even that they were going to be lawyers. They always acted surprised when they graduated and everyone had the strange idea that they were lawyers and the only thing they were good for was practicing law. I mean, really. Where did they get that idea? Then they were unhappy because they found themselves pigeon holed in a profession they didn't really like, doing work that was difficult and stressful, not making as much money as the average MBA who went to school half as long and worked half as many hours.

There is only one reason to go to law school. That is if you look yourself in the mirror and can't stand the idea of being anything but a lawyer. If she's like that, she has the drive to be a lawyer and will make a good one. If she can stand the idea of being something other than a lawyer, or she thinks she wants to be rich, she should go to business school or learn to drive a truck.

The best thing about law school is that no one cares how you spell. It shows, doesn't it?

[126coupe]

Originally Posted by MRM

Law school success can't be predicted by LSAT, intelligence or GPA. I read once that the best predictor was a combination of LSAT and GPA, weighed equally. There is almost a knack to learning the law. Once you get it the rest comes easy. All you have to do is master reading 500 pages a day, briefing a half dozen cases per class, and keepign up with your outline. but anyone with an iron butt can do that stuff. Not everyone who is willing to close out the library every night can get the knack. in my experience, the ones who tried the hardest tended to do the worst. I always through they were trying brute force when all they needed to do was sit and think a bit about why the answer was such and such. For what it's worth, I pretty much got the secret on the first day when I figured out no one else was smarter than me or had any special skills I didn't have, and that the rest was going to be a three year long hazing ritual. After that, I kind of liked it. it was like eating an all you can eat buffet without ever tasting anything great, but nothing bad, and never getting full for three years.

As an added comfort to your daughter, law schools care about grades more than LSATs. As further comfort, law schools play games with their acceptance rates. 27% isn't bad. Just tell her to beeee the test and she'll do just fine. The worst thing she can do is stress over it. If she walked in tomorrow and took the test for real with no pressure on herself, she'd probably score in the top 15%. If she stresses and acts like studying for the LSAT is like studying for the bar, she'll run out of the room screaming before she's half done.

One final thought. Why does she want to go to law school? I love it, but it is not for everyone. I can't count the number of people I met who went to law school and denied that they wanted to be lawyers, or even that they were going to be lawyers. They always acted surprised when they graduated and everyone had the strange idea that they were lawyers and the only thing they were good for was practicing law. I mean, really. Where did they get that idea? Then they were unhappy because they found themselves pigeon holed in a profession they didn't really like, doing work that was difficult and stressful, not making as much money as the average MBA who went to school half as long and worked half as many hours.

There is only one reason to go to law school. That is if you look yourself in the mirror and can't stand the idea of being anything but a lawyer. If she's like that, she has the drive to be a lawyer and will make a good one. If she can stand the idea of being something other than a lawyer, or she thinks she wants to be rich, she should go to business school or learn to drive a truck.

The best thing about law school is that no one cares how you spell. It shows, doesn't it?

Thanks MRM for taking the time to write a very informative story, I will pass it on to Natasha, I believe she has the tools to be a great lawyer. Her writing skills are always at the top of her class, she is an excellent communicator, her argument skills are scary, she has been a dedicated student since kindergarten, I pray this is what she really wants. MRM did you work while in Law School? I am encouraging her to work, but it sounds like you dont have that much spare time while in Law school full time

[MRM]

She should not, under any circumstances, work her first year. The ABA prohibits first years from working more than 10 hours a week at anything. Trust me, a first year law student should worry about only one thing and that is law school. The less she has to worry about life in general, cooking, fighting traffic, and other mundane pains in the butt of everyday living, the better. I wanted to live on campus, but the dorms were all full so I took a room in a house across the street from the dining hall and took the meal plan. I woke up in the morning, walked across the street for breakfast, walked the rest of the way to class, spent the day at school, walked back to the dining hall for dinner, walked back across the street to my room, shut the door and started it all over again the next morning. Really, in a strange way and for a short period of time, it was a pleasant way to live. There is always time for fun. Hanging out after classes, the evenings aren't completely studying, and you can do things on the weekends. But the more she can narrow her life to law school for her first year, the better off she'll be, and the more free time she'll have for fun when she is caught up with her reading.

She should try to work the summer after her first year, and should try to get a clerkship in her second year. It's very important to get a clerkship by the summer after her second year, but if it doesn't happen she shouldn't sweat it. In fact, she shoudn't sweat anything about law school. 99% of it is a big mind game. If she uses her own judgment, maintains perspective, and resigns herself to a marathon rather than burning out in a sprint, she'll be just fine.

[ramonesfreak]

MRM is exactly right on all points. one thing that is very important, is learning how to master the process right from the beginning.

my first year, i did miserably because i thought it was easy. i did not go see the teacher after class, join study groups, make meticulous outlines etc... because i thought my intelligence would get me through. confidence is necessary, but being overly confident because of your prior educational success can be disaster. all the brains in the world will not ensure good results if you do not understand the very exact process involved in doing well on law school exams.

i found the entire process to be very methamatic. by my second year, i surprised myself and really did very well from then on, once i figured out what i was doing wrong.

I recall stumbling upon a book that i found very helpfull called "how to do well on law school exams" or something like that. i followed its advice with good results. i think i have it and if i do, i would be happy to send it to you for her to read. it would be very advantagous to read it sometime during the first semester or sooner. ill look in my garage later

---another tip: all the commercial outlines available - well known to anyone that went through law school - are in fact helpful. as are flash cards. flash cards saved my butt. you can make them, but the commercially available ones are really great. me and my friends would take a box of whatever...contracts...torts..etc. to the cafe or park and quiz each other...or any other free moment i had, i would run through 50 or so cards just to keep my mind sharp regarding the subject matter. --- looking back now: i think it would have been to my advantage to have these materials much sooner than exam week. the sooner she becomes familiar with the strange language of law the more comfortable she will be in class. I still have a few boxes of flash cards that i would be happy to send as well if you want em. otherwise, im sure you can get em online or at the lawschool book store. i would pick up first year - torts, contracts, property and civil procedure prior to the first day of class without a doubt

[Rot 911]

Only thing I disagree with the others about is ease of getting into law schools based on your LST score. A high LSAT score can overcome a lot of other deficiencies. I was a decent student in undergrad at the University of Kansas. I planned on going to their law school because I could pay in state tuition. I took the LSAT and scored in the 99 percentile. I'm not a genius, but I seem to have a knack for these kinds of tests and I also work well under pressure. The law schools apparently contact the LSAT people to find out who the high scorers are because after I took the test I started getting letters from some top schools offering scholarships to go there. I still went to KU, but on a full ride scholarship.

Unless things have changed one thing your daughter has to be aware of, unlike the SAT or ACT the LSAT doesn't take your highest score if you take the test more than once. They average out your scores. So unless she bombs it the first time only take it once!

[126coupe]

If after your first year in law school and you choose a different path are the units transferable to another grad school?

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by Minkoff

If after your first year in law school and you choose a different path are the units transferable to another grad school?

Very doubtful. Most grad schools have a specific list of courses you have to take. 1L courses are basic law classes that I don't think would have much application in other grad schools.

[ramonesfreak]

Im not sure but I doubt it.

This is the problem with law school....how do you know if its the wrong path? Say you decide that the schooling part absolutely sucks...which it does so you drop out....when in fact you may have loved the actual working as a lawyer part...well, now you will never know

And further, say you love everything about lawschool, do well and compelete the program...there is a very high chance that you will loath practicing law despite having loved the schooling part...

fact is that law school and practicing law have nothing in common except the reading/analyzing/learning aspect. Law school does help prepare you to "think like a lawyer" as they say...but after the first year..you will still have NO idea what real world work is like until a real lawyer hands you a ****load of work and says "get this done for me asap!" and then you stay up all night doing it, day after day after day after day after day after day after day

Many of the students I knew that really did well, and went on to have "satisfying" careers as lawyers, were older students who had real world experience working around lawers or in law firms in some capacity, or perhaps in the insurance industry....

for example, a non-lawyer but licensed Workers' Compensation representative who works a few years doing similar work that lawers do, handling cases at hearings etc.... but then decides to go become a lawyer for whatever reason. Thats the type of person that knows what to expect and does well

your typical 20 year old entering lawschool, such as myself, has NO clue. Television does not realistically represent what lawyers do from day to day or how much money they make.

On a positive note, even if a person never worked as a lawyer, but finished the education, that education would be very helpful to one's intellectual development. Honestly, I hated every damn second of lawschool and even thinking about it 11 years later makes me want to puke...but I can honestly say I learned a ****load about the world and how it works and occasionally, found a topic to be very interesting...such as constitutional law

---I found that book by the way. ill send it out in a week or so

[MRM]

No. First year law courses are not transferable to any other grad school. Some schools will let you use a credit or two of legal coursework to fulfill some elective in the other grad school coursework. But generally speaking law school credits have no value for anything other than toward graduation from law school.

There is a common misperception that law school somehow prepares you for some career other than being a lawyer. As I said above, the only thing law school does is qualify you to be a practicing lawyer. If you do not have a burning desire to practice law you have no business going to law school. If you go to law school your career options in the future will be limited to jobs that require a law degree. No one hires people with law degrees to do things that don't require law degrees because they will say they don't need a lawyer for that position. If you want to be a lawyer, fine. Law school is where you want to go. But law school isn’t just some souped up grad school where you go because you're smart and will do well at it, and three years later you plan to emerge from your academic cocoon and decide what your next step is. Once you've gone to law school your next step is decided for you. You either get on with the business of being a lawyer or you start all over. From the begining.

[ramonesfreak]

MRM is exactly right again. I have known people who graduated from law school and have gone on to extremely successful (financially and personally) careers in finance, real estate etc.... but, I think that is the exception. Early in my career, I tried to get out of the legal field and interviewed in non-law companies. The interviewers looked at me like I was insane or an idiot. They couldn't understand that choice. It can be done but for the most part... I think one should have a burning passion to become a lawyer when deciding to get the law school education.

Yea its a little longer and more expensive, but would you go to medical school just to get a graduate degree? nope

However, in the event that a nice father should pay 100% of their kid's law school tuition...that kid will have many more opportunities, or choices afterwards.

For example, after a year of trying to be a lawyer, if I had decided to say screw this, I wanna be a mechanic and open a shop some day, or open up a bar or coffee shop.... I cant. I needed to practice law in order to make enough money to pay back the student loan.....which after 11 years is still not paid off.

The question is, how is a 20/21 year old supposed to know what to do? I have no idea.

There is NOTHING wrong with going to law school and after a semester saying, you know what- this **** aint for me.