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-   -   a "no whining, just solutions" thread (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/415646-no-whining-just-solutions-thread.html)

pwd72s 06-20-2008 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 4013438)

Flat tax or *massive* tax reform. Taxes shouldn't be about redistributing wealth, but making the country run and providing essential services.

I'm with you on this one....but we'd disagree on what is essential.

Superman 06-20-2008 11:07 AM

Prohibit participation in public policy formation by anyone other than citizens/voters, and their associations. Campaign contributions. Lobbying. All manner of participation in lawmaking or government administration is prohibited to legal entities that are not citizens/voters. In other words, no corporate involvement in politics or public policy-making. Citizens only. For each instance in which a corporation is found to be involved, a tax of 50% of its profits for a period of five years would be assessed. If you cannot vote, then you have no business is Washington.

Jeff Higgins 06-20-2008 11:56 AM

I'll go one step further, Supe. Only contributing citizens get a vote. In the past, in Great Britain and other places, property owners were the only ones allowed to vote. That's kind of harsh, but we do need similar qualifications. If you don't work, you don't vote. That's pretty high level, and there would have to be a great deal of discussion over the general boundaries of that, but that's the gist of it. If you are putting into the public larder, you have a say in how it is managed. If you are taking from it, you do not.

nostatic 06-20-2008 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwd72s (Post 4014319)
I'm with you on this one....but we'd disagree on what is essential.

well, let's see. I can guess a couple we might disagree on, but we might agree on a fair amount as well.

To me "essential" are those things that are critical for the sovereignty of the nation, and also things that a "civilized" society should promote and maintain.

Transportation. Someone has to plan and maintain the infrastructure. There has to be some national cohesion so that the infrastructures can coexist. ie, we can't have 50 different railroad gauges.

Education. There needs to be some accountability and minimum set of standards. I do not believe that a fully privatized/capitalist education system can work. If you want "the poor" to get ahead, education is the path. Society should have some set of mechanisms in place to enable that.

Health Care. I do not favor national healthcare only, but instead a mix of public and private. Let's call a spade a spade - we essentially have a bastard form of national health care now but don't call it that, and don't run it in any efficient way. Establish a minimum level of care for everyone through a network of facilities. Then allow private as "value added." Yes, you get better health care if you have more money. That's the way life works. But you shouldn't be denied basic care just because you're poor.

Welfare. Abolish the current system and move to a work/mentor/public service model. In order to receive assistance you have to do something. Pick up trash in parks, sweep the sidwalk in front of your apartment, etc. Ideally one would work for a local small business as their "service."

The Arts. I think there needs to be some money provided to support the arts. I'm not clear on how to best do this, but I was struck the other night when watching Frontline and they did a 25 year retrospective. They produced some amazing content that is still compelling. Commercial tv just doesn't do that. I know...I deal with the industry and they have no interest in quality, just what sells.

Energy. Fund the "Manhattan Project" for energy independence. Support decentralized production (co-ops) and conservation along with alternatives. But don't become the teat for large industries to suck on. If there is money to be made in oil, coal gasification, nuclear then industry should go for it.

Military. As long as we have humans, we will have wars. But the MIC is pretty broken and insane amounts of money get wasted. Time to revamp the system. That's a huge undertaking in itself, but we don't have a sustainable model. There is work towards the "future warfighter" and costs and human factors need to be a huge part of the equation. I'd streamline intelligence but at the same time increase their capabilities.

that's a start...

Dottore 06-20-2008 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 4014401)
I'll go one step further, Supe. Only contributing citizens get a vote. In the past, in Great Britain and other places, property owners were the only ones allowed to vote. That's kind of harsh, but we do need similar qualifications. If you don't work, you don't vote. That's pretty high level, and there would have to be a great deal of discussion over the general boundaries of that, but that's the gist of it. If you are putting into the public larder, you have a say in how it is managed. If you are taking from it, you do not.


The logical extension of this argument is that you get to vote ACCORDING TO THE SIZE of your contribution. Not sure you want to go there.

pavulon 06-20-2008 12:54 PM

A Marriage license should be like a fishing license. It expires every year. Going out of state? Get a 3-day license.

Not my idea, but the guy who thought of it might be a genius.

Seahawk 06-20-2008 01:52 PM

Some comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic (Post 4014452)
well, let's see. I can guess a couple we might disagree on, but we might agree on a fair amount as well.

To me "essential" are those things that are critical for the sovereignty of the nation, and also things that a "civilized" society should promote and maintain.

Transportation. Someone has to plan and maintain the infrastructure. There has to be some national cohesion so that the infrastructures can coexist. ie, we can't have 50 different railroad gauges.

Education. There needs to be some accountability and minimum set of standards. I do not believe that a fully privatized/capitalist education system can work. If you want "the poor" to get ahead, education is the path. Society should have some set of mechanisms in place to enable that.

Minimum standards at the federal level, all based on the three R's. We don't need the incredible mess that is the education bureaucracy to tell us what needs to be done. Politics invade at both the state and federal level, but the mistakes are magnified when the Dept of Ed goons it. Let state and school districts experiment if they want. Pay good teachers what they are really worth and change will follow.

Health Care. I do not favor national healthcare only, but instead a mix of public and private. Let's call a spade a spade - we essentially have a bastard form of national health care now but don't call it that, and don't run it in any efficient way. Establish a minimum level of care for everyone through a network of facilities. Then allow private as "value added." Yes, you get better health care if you have more money. That's the way life works. But you shouldn't be denied basic care just because you're poor.

Not sure. Health care is the 800lbs booger. HC needs revamping but it must include real reform in tort, pharm, etc.

Welfare. Abolish the current system and move to a work/mentor/public service model. In order to receive assistance you have to do something. Pick up trash in parks, sweep the sidewalk in front of your apartment, etc. Ideally one would work for a local small business as their "service."

The Arts. I think there needs to be some money provided to support the arts. I'm not clear on how to best do this, but I was struck the other night when watching Frontline and they did a 25 year retrospective. They produced some amazing content that is still compelling. Commercial tv just doesn't do that. I know...I deal with the industry and they have no interest in quality, just what sells.

No funding for art at the federal level. None. State, sure.

Energy. Fund the "Manhattan Project" for energy independence. Support decentralized production (co-ops) and conservation along with alternatives. But don't become the teat for large industries to suck on. If there is money to be made in oil, coal gasification, nuclear then industry should go for it.

Agree but it would be a nightmare to manage...I have some ideas on incentives and think that the appropriations for the project must be clearly tied to metrics and benchmarks. Insane amounts of money could get wasted

Military. As long as we have humans, we will have wars. But the MIC is pretty broken and insane amounts of money get wasted. Time to revamp the system. That's a huge undertaking in itself, but we don't have a sustainable model. There is work towards the "future warfighter" and costs and human factors need to be a huge part of the equation. I'd streamline intelligence but at the same time increase their capabilities.

Roles and missions need to be constantly refined...Gates is actually doing a good job. We simply cannot afford the military in it's current livery...manpower is an overwhelming bill that will have to be paid in the coming years. We are at the point in the curve where we are gold plating weapons systems to the point of absurdity. Best is the enemy of good enough and we can't afford billion dollar aircraft. Unmanned vehicles will rule the next century.

that's a start...


Jim Richards 06-20-2008 01:56 PM

Quote:

Unmanned vehicles will rule the next century.
Hahahahaha! Sure...next you'll be saying we're going to break the sound barrier! :rolleyes:

:p

nostatic 06-20-2008 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahawk (Post 4014592)
Some comment:

Minimum standards at the federal level, all based on the three R's. We don't need the incredible mess that is the education bureaucracy to tell us what needs to be done. Politics invade at both the state and federal level, but the mistakes are magnified when the Dept of Ed goons it. Let state and school districts experiment if they want. Pay good teachers what they are really worth and change will follow.

The pay part of the equation is key, and I'm fine with having the states deal with most of the admin. But there has to be some fed bar to jump over.


Quote:

Not sure. Health care is the 800lbs booger. HC needs revamping but it must include real reform in tort, pharm, etc.
Agreed. In my previous post I mentioned tort/insurance reform. They have to go hand-in-hand. I think that a "civilized" society really should provide a certain level of health care though. How we best achieve that without bankruptcy is the trick.

Quote:

No funding for art at the federal level. None. State, sure.
I think we'll agree to disagree on this one. I'm not really clear on the details of how this would work, but I think that the arts are part of our national identity.

Quote:

Agree but it would be a nightmare to manage...I have some ideas on incentives and think that the appropriations for the project must be clearly tied to metrics and benchmarks. Insane amounts of money could get wasted
So in other words, don't let SAIC run it? ;)

Metrics and sane deliverables are key. But frankly overhead costs have just become ridiculous. We need to crack that nut.

Quote:

Roles and missions need to be constantly refined...Gates is actually doing a good job. We simply cannot afford the military in it's current livery...manpower is an overwhelming bill that will have to be paid in the coming years. We are at the point in the curve where we are gold plating weapons systems to the point of absurdity. Best is the enemy of good enough and we can't afford billion dollar aircraft. Unmanned vehicles will rule the next century.
You get no argument from me...if only the contracting process could be a little quicker we might be pushing the UAS even harder into the next level :p

I think money needs to focus on efficient training and keeping people out of harms way. Education/training, intel, and UAS all help do that. Gold plated tanks don't.

Superman 06-20-2008 02:12 PM

Where did you cretins get such rational ideas?

scottmandue 06-20-2008 02:53 PM

Ban lowfat yogurt!

The rest should fall into line.

Seahawk 06-20-2008 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman (Post 4014631)
Where did you cretins get such rational ideas?

I practice when I'm alone;)

A few more reforms that I feel are trenchant and imperative:

- College football play-offs...if Mount F'ing Union can get it done, I think the student athletes at LSU can.

- No Hockey past March.

- Wooden bats in college baseball...someone is going to get killed.

- The US Senate will forever be banned from investigating any sports scandal.

- Invigorate PE in grade school...make running a mile in under 15 minutes compulsory for getting into HS. I kid:cool:

RWebb 06-20-2008 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins (Post 4014401)
I'll go one step further, Supe. Only contributing citizens get a vote. * * * If you don't work, you don't vote. That's pretty high level, and there would have to be a great deal of discussion over the general boundaries of that, but that's the gist of it. If you are putting into the public larder, you have a say in how it is managed. If you are taking from it, you do not.

ABSOLUTELY! No more voting for retirees! And let's have a National Kill Old People Week too!

RWebb 06-20-2008 04:44 PM

IF a student fails a test, they get to take another, similar test.

If they fail the second time, we execute their parents.

red-beard 06-20-2008 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman (Post 4014337)
Prohibit participation in public policy formation by anyone other than citizens/voters, and their associations. Campaign contributions. Lobbying. All manner of participation in lawmaking or government administration is prohibited to legal entities that are not citizens/voters. In other words, no corporate involvement in politics or public policy-making. Citizens only. For each instance in which a corporation is found to be involved, a tax of 50% of its profits for a period of five years would be assessed. If you cannot vote, then you have no business is Washington.

Yes, but if I draft you as Surgeon General, will you serve?

VaSteve 06-20-2008 06:46 PM

Turn off the ****ing internet and get back to work. Really. I started a new job this week, they have web filters. I have gotten more done this week then ever. If we could get people to stop IM, myspacing, youtubing, PPOTing, we could really get some **** done.

VaSteve 06-20-2008 06:54 PM

No welfare. Can't work cause you got 6 kids? Fine. Drop them off at the babysitting co-op. Some other "can't work" baby mamma can watch them while you work and then vice versa.

widgeon13 06-20-2008 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaSteve (Post 4015087)
Turn off the ****ing internet and get back to work. Really. I started a new job this week, they have web filters. I have gotten more done this week then ever. If we could get people to stop IM, myspacing, youtubing, PPOTing, we could really get some **** done.

Couldn't agree more, also cut out smoke breaks. Probably one hour out of 8 wasted every day going and coming from smoke breaks, can't do it in high rise buildings so they take extra time to get outside, no addressing the medical cost associated with this habit.

VaSteve 06-20-2008 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland (Post 4014165)
Flat tax - no deductions, exemptions, or credits.

Not only would it simplify the tax process and save a pile of time and money, it would eliminate political "vote buying". Candidates could no longer buy votes buy promising favored (or punitive) tax treatment for this-or-that group.


Our tax code is written to incentivize certain behaviors. I prefer that I and most of the people on my street are encouraged with tax breaks as home OWNERS. The guy next door that rents and doesn't cut the lawn? Asshat. Just think if we all had to rent? Only the building owners would have anything...no pride of ownership.

DARISC 06-20-2008 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaSteve (Post 4015104)
No welfare. Can't work cause you got 6 kids? Fine. Drop them off at the babysitting co-op. Some other "can't work" baby mamma can watch them while you work and then vice versa.

Got no kids, but from what I hear, ain't that simple.

1) In my opinion, having 6 kids in this overpopulated world ought to be a crime (I believe that the population explosion (what an archaic expression!) is a very real problem).

2)Given that this situation exists, gotta, of course, look after the kids - but - if day care costs as much or more than the working mother brings home, which I hear is, more often than not, the case, where is the incentive for the mother to work rather than stay at home and take care of her brood at her own (yeah, I know, "our") expense. Math's a b!tch, can't argue with it.

Welfare is only legitimate if it is an effective tool to help extricate deserving recipients from a dependent, poverty situation, enabling them to become productive members of society, which, given the huge and growing population of this country, presents a monumental task for the glacially slow and addlebrained beureaucrats administering the current system.

Of COURSE reform is needed! But recognizing that fact is the easy part; taking effective action to bring about effective change is the befuddlingly difficult part.

anthony 911 06-20-2008 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche-o-phile (Post 4013695)
- For Every New Law Enacted, Two Must Be Stricken From The Books Until Some Reasonable Number Of Total Laws Is Reached, Then It Can Become 1-for-1.

- Every New Law Must Have Some Kind Of Expiration Date Or "sunset" Provision

- No Right Of Citizenship For Anyone. Citizenship Will Be Earned By People Upon Completion Of A Mandatory Two-year Civil Service Program Upon Completion Of High School Or Their 18th Birthday (whichever Applies). These Programs Will Give Young People A Choice Of Military, Public Works Improvement, Administrative, Law Enforcement, Search/rescue/public Safety Or Other Programs. When They Complete The Programs, They Will Have Earned Their Citizenship (at Age 20) And Now Have The Rest Of Their Lives To Pursue Interests, College, Career, Whatever.

- Requirement For A Balanced Budget Every Year By Federal, State And Local Branches Of Government.

- Re-instate (and Expand) Tax Credits For High-efficiency And Alternative-fuel Vehicles.

- Build More Solar, Wind And Nuclear Power Plants. Expand Domestic U.s. Refining Capacity In The Short Term. If The Nimbys Don't Like It, They Can Move.

- Strict Global Term Limits. For Sake Of Argument Let's Say 15 Years. That Means A Person Can Only Serve A Total Of 15 Years In Any Elected Office. Five Years As Dog Catcher, Three Years As A Neighborhood Council Member And Four Years As A State Representative (for Example) Means If You Get Elected To A Six-year Term In The U.s. Senate, You're Done After That. "experience" In Politics Is Overrated. Necessary To A Point, But Overrated. More Important To Get Rid Of Career Politicians/bureaucrats.

- Reduce Government Budgets By 20% A Year Until They Are At Most Half Of What They Are Today. Preferably More.

- Immediately Levy A 50% Tarriff On All Goods Imported From China Until They De-peg The Yuan From The U.s. Dollar. After That, Make It 30%. If They Don't Like It, Tough.

- Create A Program Rounding Up And Deporting Illegal Aliens. Upon Arrest, Give Them A Choice Of Six Months In Prison (followed By Deportation) Or Six Months Helping To Build The Wall And Other Border Security Elements Along The U.s./mexico Border. If They Complete The Six Months, They Get A Chance To Plea Their Case For Becoming A Legal Immigrant To The U.s. On The Basis Of Good Behavior And Hopefully Being A Productive Member Of Society - Just Like Prospective Immigrants Coming Over "cold Turkey".

- The Official Language Of The U.s. Is English. End Of Story.

- A Large-scale (someone Said "manhattan Project-like", Which Is Good) Initiative To Completely Rid The U.s. Of Dependence On Foreign Sources Of Fuel/energy Within 40 Years.

I'm Sure I'll Think Of More. . .

+1
+

Jim Richards 06-20-2008 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaSteve (Post 4015113)
Our tax code is written to incentivize certain behaviors. I prefer that I and most of the people on my street are encouraged with tax breaks as home OWNERS. The guy next door that rents and doesn't cut the lawn? Asshat. Just think if we all had to rent? Only the building owners would have anything...no pride of ownership.

Steve, I think that providing tax incentives for certain behaviors is not the mandate of our government.

VaSteve 06-20-2008 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Richards (Post 4015177)
Steve, I think that providing tax incentives for certain behaviors is not the mandate of our government.


Those certain behaviors are (or were at the time) designed to encourage one thing or another that would make our country better. Certain things have not been sunsetted (see management talk thread ;) ) and thus persist forever. Certainly arguing home ownership or saving for your retirement is a good thing. The prudent amongst would likely do these things anyway, but others need a break. I frankly don't care if a guy busting his ass *trying* to make it pays a little less tax than me by percentage (as is the current arrangement). I wouldn't trade to be in his position.

Dantilla 06-20-2008 09:48 PM

Suprising how much similarity between the Lefties and Righties.

Lots of common sense here. Why is it here in off-topic, instead of in Washington D.C.?

Joeaksa 06-21-2008 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by URY914 (Post 4014051)
Slow drivers must stay in the right lane.

Aint that the truth.

Jim Richards 06-21-2008 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dantilla (Post 4015287)
Suprising how much similarity between the Lefties and Righties.

Lots of common sense here. Why is it here in off-topic, instead of in Washington D.C.?

I'm here in off-topic and in Washington DC. :)

john70t 06-21-2008 06:49 AM

All 2X4's will measure 2 inches by 4 inches.
All lumber will be seasoned 2 years before selling.
All fasteners and drivers will be grade 8 or better.
No oil allowed on trim nails.
All wood stains will contain at least 40% linseed oil.
Manufactures must use metric or standard, no combo's.

Another vote for red-beard.

Porsche-O-Phile 06-21-2008 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 4015539)
All 2X4's will measure 2 inches by 4 inches.
All lumber will be seasoned 2 years before selling.
All fasteners and drivers will be grade 8 or better.
No oil allowed on trim nails.
All wood stains will contain at least 40% linseed oil.
Manufactures must use metric or standard, no combo's.

Another vote for red-beard.

Do you want a job writing specs for me?

john70t 06-21-2008 09:51 AM

Heck no. My liver and wallet couldn't afford the Tylenol.:D

DanielDudley 06-21-2008 01:53 PM

If you want to know why we don't have all these things, follow the money trail...

I sometimes wonder if we as a society are like an addict who will not quit because he hasn't yet been driven to his knees. Things have been too good, too long for too many for us to think about changing. Say what you will about Jimmy Carter, he taught us a valuable lesson. You can't expect people to embrace change that involves giving up something. Incentives, security, and promises of a better tommorrow are what people want. A present day that includes the possibility of a future with possibility.

I think that many of the suggestions here truly embrace that philosophy. What makes these ideas truly great however, and what makes this thread unique is that these are universal concepts that appeal to everyone.

What would happen if we all endeavored to always come from a place where we reached for agreement, both here and in the world at large ? What would happen if we spread that concept wherever we go, and with everyone we deal with?

And what would happen if we consolidated this list into a short clean document, and posted it wherever we find ourselves on the internet ? A very few people got together and created a new Nation in America. Do you feel like they felt ? I feel it in my bones.

artplumber 06-23-2008 09:29 PM

some more thoughts:

eliminate the deduction for children even if the flat tax doesn't get passed. Come up with an estimate of how much they cost the state, and create a penalty per child, if parents don't meet minimum income/tax paid levels.

If your city requires additional jail space or power plant etc, it has to be built in that city's limits. This might apply to water as well. This will encourage all the no coal/oil and no nuclear folks to make some decisions.

Healthcare is easy. Go back to cash. People get to decide what they want to know about/deal with. Improved savings rate (because one has to "save for a rainy day" again) and unnecessary tests get booted. People might actually start to take better care of themselves. The good MD's will naturally rise to the top, because their patients will live longer with fewer tests/mistakes etc. And MD's won't be presented with patients that come to appointments but don't follow any of the recommendations (ie if the patients don't want to listen to the doc, they'll have to pay a fee for a waste of time=waste of their money not the insurance company's money). Tort reform will help especially with unnecessary testing. Can offer a basic "physical" by physician extenders at reduced fee schedule/on the govt dole. Maybe some form of VA-like system for Medicaid only persons. MD's can go back to giving charity care (which there was plenty of before Medicare), and the patients can also realize when they are actually getting free care.

Mule 06-23-2008 09:51 PM

This is so simple.
1. Energy independence now.
2. Operation wetback
3. The fair tax.
4. Smack the muslims down.

David 06-24-2008 05:39 PM

Make civil servant managers and officers criminally accountable for their department's actions.

With huge government lawsuit payouts and major police civil rights violations, I don't see the same fear of penalty that the private sector has.

Since I handle many gov't related items for the company, my general manager makes it clear to me that he does not want to go to jail or be fired. Everyone is regularly informed that their actions reflect on the company.

So it appears the government's willing to put the public in jail, but very reluctant to do the same with its own employees.


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