If Europe is so environmentally conscious...
 

...what's with all the two stroke engines many of the commuters use? I'm talking about scooters and motorcycles. They're everywhere in the big cities, at least that I recently visited. But man, are they, in mass, the nastiest polluters I've experienced. I saw a Yamaha YZ spew out more smoke than I've seen coming from the stacks of a diesel semi. Almost as bad is the wreak off these bikes. Sure, I like engine smells, but in a hoard of twenty or so scooters/motorcycles, that same oil/gas scent is so overwhelming, it's almost nauseating .

So now I wonder: if certain European countries with large cities are so environmentally conscious, why haven't these countries dealt with the scooters and two-stroke bikes? I have to say, the immediate on-street air in downtown L.A. is a lot better than La Rambla in Barcelona, Spain.

they are banned btw... all scooters sold today are 4 stroke

EDIT, correction, the law is proposed EU wide, and needs to be ratified
the 2006 law was emissions based, stronger regulation, difficult to meet with 2 stroke, to push manufacturers towards 4stroke, but no ban yet

Ban should come into effect soonish

I bloody hate scooters. Not that I have thought so much of the environment, but the noise! There is a gang of gangsters (youngsters) in my neighborhood with scooters. They spend the evenings racing around and around and around and ...I am fixing to buy a pellet gun! :mad:

We'll make a nasty 'merican out of you yet :)

a broom handle through the front wheel is so much more satisfying but requires a lot of practice to get the timing just right.:)

You guys are an invaluable, never ending, source of good advice, cheering up and cunning plans! Thanks! :D

BTW, Markus, do you really use the phrase "I am fixin' to... "? I thought that was strictly a "southern thang" :).

Keith, I picked up most of my English phrases from American movies. I blame Hollywood. :D

You go Indy!

The pessimist in me says it has zero to do with being green and everything to do with necessity.

Old, crowded cities with small roads and maybe expensive gas just scream for scooters!

Pellet guns kill!

Crap! My credibility on the gun issue shot to pieces! :D

DD,

Which cities other than Barcelona are you referring to?

I have not seen a 2 stroke anything in Europe in years...

Joe

Starting to have scooters all over the place downtown here. That's great and all, but they are an absolute b!tch to clean out of the grille and wheel wells of my BMW. Especially if I let them dry up overnight or wait till the weekend. My strongest degreaser has a hard time with them.

probably all of them. you can still get NEW ones in the states. maybe not in cali with all the bans they have in place there.
one of my co-workers has one and i am thinking about picking one up myself. either an aprillia or Kimco. short non highway commute.

Joe - Sicily, Florence, Rome, Paris.

I side with Berettafan as to the necessity. I've seen some very small cars in Europe - some smaller than the original Mini - and believe it or not, those cars would not fit through some of the streets in the cities above.

Plus, parking is a beyotch in these cities - most of it permit only. So while I see the idea of scooters as needed, they really take a lot out of you as a pedestrian in the way of noise and exhaust. Plus, the way some of the people drive their scooters is absolutely suicidal.

No wonder I hardly saw in cyclists.

As far as two-strokes go, yep, they're still offered on the market. Case in point is this Aprilia SR50, which looks like a rocket as far as scooters go.
http://www.apriliausa.com/upload/mod...00533_0113.jpg
Oddly enough, this scooter is listed on the Aprilia/USA website, though I would think there'd be no way you could get this thing new into the country.

I race off road enduro - riding a KTM 200.
Reckon in any event 75% of the field is riding 2-strokes.
Couldn't afford to race if 4-strokes were the only option - rebuild costs are just too much.

When I was in Japan earlier this year I didn't get the impression they were especially green. I just got the impression they recycle because they don't have much choice. There's just no room to dispose of trash. They are very clean so I guess that makes them seem green.

There were plenty of smoke stacks bellowing out more than just steam and plenty of two stroke motorcycles and old cars.

thats one of the ones i am looking at here
http://www.cycleworkswa.com/new_vehicle_detail.asp?sid=04427606X7K1K2008J6I08I 15JPMQ2731R0&veh=58643&CatDesc=Scooters&ModelYear= 2008

Ted - I saw a couple SR50 Rs in Europe. They seem a lot more peppy than the other scooters. The Aprilia graphics were hella cool looking. I'm curious though, do you live in The States? how will you register the SR50 R for road use? I think Cali has made all new 2-strokes pretty much illegal on the streets.

I found this forum that mentions the SR50 R, with a couple guys who have them in CT, but no mention if they've registered them.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151564&page=5

just another reason i am glad i no longer line in So Cal.

they are perfectly legal for road use up here in Washington. lots of the new two stroke scooters are available up here.
Kimco i am looking at too, is very similar and at a much better price comes from Asia and my co-worker is having a blast on his. his is water cooled, the ones the shop he got his from, are now stocking the air-cooled version like the aprillia.

Vespa has some two strokes available here, and i think most of the 50cc ones are too.

those smallish diameter wheels seem like they'd be a handful at speed?

test rode my mother in law's Cushman (getting ready to sell after her husband passed) and it was tougher to do 30mph on that than the Honda Cub she and I both have.

My recently pch'd BMW R25/3 supposedly got 80mpg when new and is a pretty cool alternative to some of the throw away machines on the market these days (i believe i'll have it running with a complete motor overhaul for under $3k including purchase).

I seem to recall Aprilia having a fuel injected two-stroke so I looked it up. Apparently they use direct injection from an Australian company called Orbital. Aprilia were one of the first scooter manufactrers to use this technology but they have now been joined by Piaggio, Vespa, and Peugeot.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1214962301.jpg

Instead of introducing the air into the fuel before passing it through the crankcase, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder. This prevents it mixing with lubricating oil from the crankcase, although I guess some will still get through. As a result there is considerably less oil burnt and virtually all the fuel introduced to the engine is used in the combustion process.

http://www.banksiafdn.com/page_assets/Case2003_Orbital.pdf

Well you did ask.

Guns don't kill, people do. :cool:

If pellet guns are outlawed, only pellets will have guns!

WTF...What's your point...You don't have to be shy of it.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215012928.jpg

When I was about ten, there was this neighborhood brat I despised. One day he was taunting me from the seat of his moving bike. As he passed by, I tossed a nice little stick at him, and it lodged PERFECTLY in the front wheel spokes, instantly locking the front wheel with the expected result. Pure magic! I'm sure I could never repeat it.

There is a proejct underway to retrofit two-stroke taxis in the Phillipines with direct injection. Initial testing was positive, 90% emissions reductions, better gas mileage, reliable, etc.

If one of these kits were available in the US, I'd consider retrofitting my Vespa. For the economics to work in a Manila taxi fleet, the kit can't be all that expensive.

I don't understand how the bearings get lubed, though.

Many of the current two-stroke scooters are direct injection.

well if you look at the diagram above the oil goes in with the air. only the fuel is direct injected. the new two stroke scooters have a seperate oil tank, you no longer have to premix.

In Rome last April, everything was terrific except for the scooter stink.

Awwww come onnnnnnnnnnnnn !!!!!;)

Isn't this one of the things that makes Rome so great - the crazy traffic - damn my side of the road is blocked, I'll just drive on the wrong side of the road !!!

One of the favorite cities I've visited by far.

Okay, I sort of get it.

On a two-stroke with autolube (like my Vespa), the oil goes from its separate tank into the carb where it mixes with the gas and air. So perhaps the carb is retained, and functions to meter the air as well as mix the oil? But the fuel line no longer goes to the carb, instead goes to a pump and then an injector in the head? And somehow the injector is coordinated with the carb?

All speculation - wish I could find out more about the Envirokit.

Edit: So far I found this

http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/articles-70774_comments.doc

http://motorcyclephilippines.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120132 discussion in a local scooter forum, which I can't read

http://www.envirofit.org/retrofit_kit.html This Envirofit page

which doesn't make things any clearer.

Didn't Polaris and Yamaha make a two stroke i4 wheeler n the late 80's early 90's that had a seperate oil tank, and you didn't premix?

Bill

While it's fairly common now for two-strokes to have a seperate oil tank, all that means is that you don't have to pre-mix the oil with the fuel. The oil is still mixed with the fuel and air at the carburetor so you still get fuel and oil mixed together circulating in the crankcase. I think this is the biggest problem with the emissions as the fuel carries a fair amount of oil and they both get pulled into the combustion chamber together so you end up burning a fuel/oil/air mix. With the direct injection the oil still gets metered from a seperate oil tank via a device similar to a carburetor but I would imagine that you need less of it as lubricant in the crankcase as it isn't thinned down with fuel. The fuel itself is sprayed directly into the cylinder so it never gets into the crankcase. There is bound to be some oil mist carried into the combustion chamber but I would guess that this is a far smaller amount than on a 'normal' two-stroke engine.

I wonder if it would be possible to have a flexible membrane stimulated by the alternating crankcase pressure to fill the combustion chamber with air? That way it might be possible to have a seperate crankcase lubrication system and never expose the air for the combustion to the crankcase lubricating oil. That would burn even cleaner.