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Christien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hamilton, Ont.
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Sold 944, now a dispute

Just want to throw this out to the PPOT brain trust. I sold my 83 944 through ebay back in May. Buyer paid through paypal and picked up the car June 1, no problems. He drove the car home some 300 miles. He sent me an email when he got home asking if I knew anything about a noise from the right rear wheel, I didn't. He said no big deal, it's a 25 year old used car, he expects some things to come up. I had said to him that I hadn't driven it for about 2 weeks prior to sale because I took my insurance off (which is when I first placed the ad), but when I last drove it, there was no noise. I had moved it around the driveway to get other cars in/out, and there were no noises or issues.

So July 1 I get an email from him saying he had to replace the transmission at a cost of $500, and that the ebay ad said the mechanicals of the car were fine, transmission shifted great, and that I should pay for part of the new tranny, $200. He said if he'd known he'd have to put that kind of repair work in he wouldn't have bought the car.

7 minutes later I get a form email from paypal saying he's filed a dispute, that the item was "significantly not as described" (paypal dispute category, I guess).

I emailed him back saying:
-the car drove, shifted, etc. perfectly fine when I placed the ad (it did)
-he drove it home some 300 miles with no apparent problem in the transmission which is evidence the tranny worked fine when he picked it up
-the ad clearly stated "car is sold as is"
-he's driven it who knows how many miles in the month since he picked in up, and done who knows what to it
-he chose not to have a PPI done.

Hell, I even lent him my license plate to drive home because he didn't have one! (he hasn't sent it back yet) Furthermore, I've just finished rebuilding my 911 tranny, so I have at least some degree of knowledge of transmissions, and there was nothing at all that would've indicated a problem in the tranny, let alone imminent failure.

So I filed my response with paypal and today receive notice that he's elevated the dispute to a full claim, and it's for the full amount of the sale price, which was $1750.

Am I completely out to lunch thinking this guy's either just trying to pass off responsibility, or worse, trying to screw me? I've sold cars before with never a problem. I value my integrity very much and don't appreciate being more or less accused of being dishonest.

FTR, below is the text of the ebay ad (there's an almost identical ad here in the classifieds: Fs: 1983 944). I'll stand by every word in that ad - I'd happily sign an affidavit to that effect if it came to a legal matter. Unfortunately there was only one other test driver, and he came while I was out so I didn't get his name (the babysitter spoke to him and let him into the car). My wife is the only person that could back me up.

I'd appreciate any comments.

Quote:
Up for sale is my awesome 83 944. This car pulls amazingly and handles like a go kart! Recent major service included water pump, timing belt, balance shaft belt, alternator/AC belt, brake pads, cap/rotor/plugs/plug wires, air filter, thermostat kit and other regular maintenance items. 4 brand new tires last fall. Bare metal repaint and body work 3 years ago.

Transmission (5-speed) shifts great, power brakes are strong, replaced the headlight motor last year, lots of service records. Brand new pioneer head unit (single disc CD) last year. Regular oil changes (new oil and filter just 2 weeks ago).

Cloth cover comes with car.

A couple problems with the car:
-paint: flaking on the front valence - should be easy to strip and repaint, as it's fibreglass, not metal. A tiny bit of rust on the driver's side below the door, and a chip under the driver's side mirror.
-the sunroof leaked and I couldn't fix it, so it's siliconed closed. I've since learned that it could likely be fixed with just a new seal, and the silicone comes off very easily. (but it doesn't leak now!)
-original seats are in terrible condition, so there are seat covers. But I got a smoking deal on a non-matching 911 power driver's chair, so that's in there now (it's grey, whereas the rest of the interior is black, but it looks fine to me). Both this new one and the original (ratty) driver's seat comes with car.
-starter was being flaky a while back so I bought a replacement, but it's been fine lately, so I didn't swap it. Replacement starter comes with the car.
-gas tank was leaking a while ago but it's fixed.
-AC works but needs recharging.
-odometer hasn't worked since 120K (just before I bought it, according to previous owner), I estimate 10-15K miles since then.

This car is an awesome daily driver. What few problems there are are cosmetic only - the engine and transmission are great, no structural rust.
Reserve is well below buy it now price!

The car also comes with the Haynes manual, original owner's manual, fairly detailed set of records dating back several years, a few odd parts lying around (replacement 4-way flasher switch, though the current one works fine), plus a few parts catalogues.
The parking brake works properly, the stereo works properly. The cigarette lighter works properly (I use it for Ipod adaptor, Garmin power and cellphone charger all the time). Front hood and rear hatch shocks all work, though slip occassionally. I installed a brand new battery I think 2 years ago. Locks were rekeyed recently, so one keys opens both doors, hatch and turns ignition.

Please note: car is for sale locally, so I reserve the right to end the auction early. Shipping is at buyer's expense

More pics are available - if there's something in particular you'd like to see, just ask! Car is sold as is. Emissions test exempt in Ontario (and most places, AFAIK).

The reserve is set well below the buy it now price.

PLEASE NOTE: This car is being relisted due to a flaky non-paying bidder, so no zero-feedback bidders, please - contact me first. I reserve the right to cancel all zero-feedback bids, or bids from bidders with recent negative feedback.

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Old 07-04-2008, 11:07 AM
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the the is offline
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You are ENTIRELY in the right. What a bozo. A crappy old $1700 944 is of course "as is." All the risk is on the buyer.

"He said if he'd known he'd have to put that kind of repair work in he wouldn't have bought the car." LOL. If you want a car with a warranty, the Porsche dealership is down the street. Bring your checkbook.
Old 07-04-2008, 11:16 AM
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Did your bill of sale indicate that the car was sold "as is"?

If you haven't already, make sure you have copies of the original ebay ad AS LISTED. Preferably showing the buyer's bid.

The guy is being a prick, but to protect against such people, I have always been VERY specific in my dealings with people and make them sign a bill of sale clearly indicating the terms of the sale and agreeing to them. I've never had anyone say "no", but if they did, I'd tell 'em to take a walk. Just a minor lesson for the future.

FWIW, I'm not a lawyer but it certainly sounds like this clown doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:20 AM
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My off the cuff impression: something doesn't smell right with the other guy. Either he's trying to screw you, or he's one of those people with unreasonable expectations of the world. I'm on your side on the issue. Car was bought "as is."

In California, there's a 2 or 3-day "cooling off period," where the buyer can return a used vehicle. Is there anything like that in Ontario? The guy complained a MONTH after buying the car, and already did repairs. I'd say he's SOL, not you.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:20 AM
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Yep, there's a bill of sale signed by both parties. Here's the text of it:

BILL OF SALE

May 25, 2008

The seller named below agrees to sell the vehicle listed below to the buyer named below, for the price indicated. This vehicle is being sold as is, without any warranty, expressed or implied. Any transportation costs, sales taxes, inspection fees, and/or cost of safety certificate and/or emissions test will be paid by the buyer (nb: this vehicle is emissions test exempt in the province of Ontario due to its age). Upon receipt of funds (pending clearance of any cheque, to be held for seven business days), the seller agrees to sign the title over to the buyer.


Vehicle: 1983 Porsche 944

VIN: WP0AA0943DNXXXXXX

Sale price: $1750.00 USD
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:23 AM
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The text of the ad I posted above is a straight copy/paste from the ebay ad. I downloaded the entire ad last night just as a precaution. The selling price was worked out by email, because the winning bidder flaked out (again )
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christien View Post
.... I value my integrity very much ...
You're "good" from my perspective also, no question about it. Who the heck does he think he was dealing with here, Snowman ? Forget him and move on...
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:24 AM
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BTW, Jeff, thanks so much for bringing up the bill of sale issue - I had completely forgotten about it. I'm going to send paypal a copy of it right now.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the View Post
You are ENTIRELY in the right. What a bozo. A crappy old $1700 944 is of course "as is." All the risk is on the buyer.

"He said if he'd known he'd have to put that kind of repair work in he wouldn't have bought the car." LOL. If you want a car with a warranty, the Porsche dealership is down the street. Bring your checkbook.
spot on!

a $1700 Porsche... what the hell was he thinking? ...that it would be worry free and ready for abuse?
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Last edited by island911; 07-04-2008 at 11:36 AM..
Old 07-04-2008, 11:26 AM
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IMHO he should have called you BEFORE he took on the repairs. I've had similar situations arise and I'm always happy to refund the sale price (usually used parts) or come to some kind of resolution before any repair work is done. After the repair is commissioned you have no way to verify it.

AM
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:29 AM
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Dude, you know those 944 guys are whack!

How the heck did he go from "it is an old car and will need some work" to wanting the full price back?

Maintenance price shock is common with 944's (ask me how I know) but this guy is being totally unrealistic.

You are in the right.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah930 View Post

In California, there's a 2 or 3-day "cooling off period," where the buyer can return a used vehicle.
That's not really true.

In California, on cars sold by DEALERS, a buyer can opt to BUY a 2 day/250 mile return policy. If the buyer doesn't pay for the right to return, they don't get it. There is no "cooling off" period in Cal.
Old 07-04-2008, 11:35 AM
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew15 View Post
IMHO he should have called you BEFORE he took on the repairs. I've had similar situations arise and I'm always happy to refund the sale price (usually used parts) or come to some kind of resolution before any repair work is done. After the repair is commissioned you have no way to verify it.

AM
Good point. At that point in time you could have said bring the car back and I will refund your money.

The ad said 'sold as is', he signed the bill of sale 'sold as is', and he drove off. Even if it broke down before he got off your street it's still his problem.

He's asking for a warranty now. F him.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:40 AM
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Anyone who expects a warranty on a $1700 car is looney.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey View Post
Even if it broke down before he got off your street it's still his problem.
Legally true, but I'd never do that. If something like that happened, or if it broke down (significantly) on the way home, I'd go out of my way to make it right. When I sold the boxster, 2 days before the guy came to pick it up, I broke the thin wood trim piece under the passenger side airbag. I probably could have glued it back together and hope he wouldn't notice, but I just can't do that. Unfortunately, it had to be not only ordered from Germany, but actually fabricated, so it was a 3 or 4 week wait. I'd ordered and paid for the piece before I even had a chance to tell him it broke. He'd agreed to DIY install it, because the service guy at the local dealership said it was an easy DIY install. When he ran into trouble, I even paid for half the labour cost to install it at a local shop. Granted, this was a $25K boxster, not a $1750 944, but still, that's the way I do business.

In this case, the buyer had asked if I had any doubt that he'd be able to drive the car home 300 miles. I said no, but even still asked him to call or email when he arrived home, just to set my mind at ease, which he did. I know that doesn't constitute a legal warranty, but in my view it constituted a moral warranty for that 300 miles against anything major.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:47 AM
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The absolute downfall when selling ANYTHING on Ebay is PayPal! I would of specifically sold the car without using it because of the very ***** you are going through. Since PayPal is so slanted toward the buyer, anyone can pull a fast one and claim anything to get their money back. I can't tell you how many encounters I have heard about an honest seller sells the item, the buyer disputes it get a refund......and the merchandise. Obviously this is water over the dam. I would do everything in my power to freeze or cancel your paypal account so it cannot be drawn upon. You are being taken advantage of for the wrong reasons.
Old 07-04-2008, 11:48 AM
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Christien: All my work comes with my exclusive Maple warranty. (You get past the maple tree at the end of the driveway and the warranty is over).
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:51 AM
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I've already cancelled my paypal account. For some reason the paypal payment went through to another email address I use, so I had to open a new account temporarily to receive the money. I cancelled it as soon as the money's received. I'd have to read the terms of service agreement, but I'm sure there's a clause in there that gives paypal the right to go back into my account in case of a dispute.

I'm absolutely done with paypal, even before this dispute arose. The charges they bill as a merchant are ridiculous. And they charge what they call a "spread" (read: markup) of 2.5% on US/CDN exchange.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche_monkey View Post
Christien: All my work comes with my exclusive Maple warranty. (You get past the maple tree at the end of the driveway and the warranty is over).
Quote of the day! Thanks for the laugh

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Old 07-04-2008, 11:51 AM
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