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-   -   Vets Mend Fences with Fonda (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/419345-vets-mend-fences-fonda.html)

Mule 07-14-2008 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4058901)
The fact that she isn't in jail should tell you that you're wrong.

That means OJ is innocent right?

When a nation wages an immoral war, you have to ask yourself whether those that protest actively against that war, and practice civil disobedience in drawing the attention of the population to the unjust conduct of that war aren't actually the heros.

Immoral according to who? Your Obammunist friends? My good friend who was (what amounts to) a congressman in VN didn't think it was immoral. They didn't like commies either.

As Einstein put it; "Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it."

Even if it fosters socialism? What if you're like Jane Fonda & don't have a conscience?

Or, as Thoreau put it: "If...the machine of government...is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law."

You are like SO philosophical! You see the trees while ALWAYS missing the forest.

I think JF was pretty naive at the time, but her heart was in the right place, and certainly the US anti-war movement deserves some credit for bringing hostilities to an early end.

The anti-war movement was influential in ending the war as it ended. There is a famous line from a VC general. He said they couldn't understand why we stopped the bombing. They were about to give up. Thanks Jane.

The vets perspective is of course different. That's as sad as it is obvious.

But it's the soldiers who are the instruments of war, and not every soldier fights a just war.

Especially American soldiers?

M.L.King said:"We should never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal".

What about JFK killing Diem? Amazing. The well informed lefties refuse to touch the fact that JFK is almost single handedly responsible for turning VN to shiit.

The differences between most Vietnam vets and JF today are undoubtedly intractable. But if you could weigh their actions on some cosmic scale of justice I think JF's actions would be largely vindicated, and those of the US military machine in Vietnam probably not.
That's 'cause conceptually, you have no problem her actions. There must be a reason her photo is in the Hall of Friends and Heroes of the Revolution at the War Remnants Museum in Vietnam. Her pic is in there with members of the VVAW, CPUSA, American Socialist Party, Fidel Castro and John Kerry.

Dottore 07-14-2008 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lee (Post 4058995)

What does the right or wrong of it have to do with Hanoi Jane's treason? I don't recall anyone here saying Vietnam was a just war. That has nothing to do with it.

.
We can debate whether JF's actions were treasonable under the laws of the day. I think clearly not, for reasons others have stated here already.

But the larger point is, even if her actions were treasonable, were they wrong? My point is simply that when a war is unjust/immoral - as Vietnam has surely been proven to have been - those who fight against that war occupy the moral high ground. Civil disobedience in the face of a corrupt regime (or foreign policy) is an honourable thing.

That argument could be made for JF - though as I also said before, I think she was fairly naive at the time.

sammyg2 07-14-2008 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 4058939)
- I'm an attorney
Nuff said, but what surprizes me is that you seem to be proud of that.

Joeaksa 07-14-2008 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4059258)
We can debate whether JF's actions were treasonable under the laws of the day. I think clearly not, for reasons others have stated here already.

That argument could be made for JF - though as I also said before, I think she was fairly naive at the time.
No we cannot debate anything, she was a traitor, period, end of story. Had her Father not been famous and powerful she would have been thrown in jail for a very long time.

So.... now being naive is a legal defence these days? Thats something new! Just where in the law books is this written?

Dottore 07-14-2008 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lee (Post 4059005)
At least Stauffenberg was a patriot who did not wish or act for his country's defeat.
That's a bit of a stretch. Stauffenberg clearly wanted Hitler dead so that a regime change could take place in which the new regime would immediately cease hostilities. He knew the consequences of such action would be grave for Germany - given the aggressive war they had conducted. Clearly he acted for his country's "defeat" in this sense - and yet he was clearly still a patriot.

Dottore 07-14-2008 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeaksa (Post 4059276)
No we cannot debate anything, she was a traitor, period, end of story.
Trick question:

If a corrupt and incompetent administration conducts an unjust war, in which countless innocent people are daily losing their lives, which is the greater treason to your country: mindlessly participating in that war as a combatant - or fighting for regime change and an end to those hostilities?

Mule 07-14-2008 06:56 AM
personal attack removed - ns

Shaun @ Tru6 07-14-2008 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danimal16 (Post 4059056)
Shaun,

I am safe and we are getting things done. You would be gratefully surprised in how many leathernecks have read and understand that book. Exceptional read and well researched.

You'll like Hackworth, but I am worried you don't have the time to read it cause you're on PPOT to much (LOL).
Glad to hear it on both accounts. For me, it completed the hat-trick of Galula, USMC Small Wars Manual and McMaster. In my book, every Serviceman should have to read all 3 and of course Petraeus.

My sacrifice here on OT bringing enlightenment to the needy is a small, but important service.;)

Rick Lee 07-14-2008 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4059294)
Trick question:

If a corrupt and incompetent administration conducts an unjust war, in which countless innocent people are daily losing their lives, which is the greater treason to your country: mindlessly participating in that war as a combatant - or fighting for regime change and an end to those hostilities?
Well, history is written by the winners. So, unless you can succeed in overthrowing a government and ceasing hostilities in that unjust war, any attempt at something less is pretty much a guaranteed death or very long jail sentence. There's never been a war in which all sides supported it, which, by your definition, means treason would have been fine, just so long as they had the best of intentions.

DARISC 07-14-2008 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule (Post 4059295)
If you ever see a sleazy, commie looking guy that you think might be Dottore, but you're not sure it's him, look for my foot prints on his ass. No foot prints, it's not him.
I'd think it'd be purdy hard ta aim a good swiff kick wif yer haid up yer butt ;).

m21sniper 07-14-2008 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4059258)
We can debate whether JF's actions were treasonable under the laws of the day. I think clearly not, for reasons others have stated here already.
Jane Fonda's actions CLEARLY fall short of Treason, but they were still as utterly distasteful as one can possibly imagine.

Providing aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is probably one that she COULD have been charged with and convicted for, but apparently no one had the balls to issue a warrant.

m21sniper 07-14-2008 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4059294)
Trick question:

If a corrupt and incompetent administration conducts an unjust war, in which countless innocent people are daily losing their lives, which is the greater treason to your country: mindlessly participating in that war as a combatant - or fighting for regime change and an end to those hostilities?
You're advocating participating in a revolt in the US as preferable to serving in a war that you don't personally agree with?

Man, you really are a ******* moron.

As far as hackworth, i always viewed him to be a douche bag.

DARISC 07-14-2008 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4059366)
Jane Fonda's actions CLEARLY fall short of Treason, but they were still as utterly distasteful as one can possibly imagine.

Providing aid and comfort to an enemy in time of war is probably one that she COULD have been charged with and convicted for, but apparently no one had the balls to issue a warrant.
I think you're skipping along a bit to spritely there, Skippy. I suggest you look back at Randy Webb's two posts for a little edification. Might help, but then again, not sure; Dottore's posts seem to have sailed right over your weak end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4059372)
You're advocating participating in a revolt in the US as preferable to serving in a war that you don't personally agree with?

Man, you really are a ******* moron.

Man, you reactionaries are sooo angry! The old expression "I'm so angry I can't see straight!" - apt?

As far as hackworth, i always viewed him to be a douche bag.

HAHAHA! I'd wager that if Hackworth ever wasted his time evaluating you, he wouldn't rate you near that high!
..

m21sniper 07-14-2008 08:05 AM
Hackworth transformed into a total attention whore and nay sayer at the end, and lost the respect of a LOT of military types.

But wtf would you know about that?

Even though it was guys EXACTLY LIKE ME that he sad he was an advocate for, IMO he was in it for him.

As for the rest, blah, blah, blah.

BeyGon 07-14-2008 08:23 AM
Darisc
Hey! I'm a Viet Nam vet, buddy! I wasn't drafted, I VOLUNTEERED! I was THERE! TWO TOURS!!

For someone so proud they volunteered and served two terms, tell us what branch you volunteered for and what years you were there. Usually you are very happy to talk about your accomplishments, real or imagined. What did you do?

Dottore 07-14-2008 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 4059372)

You're advocating participating in a revolt in the US as preferable to serving in a war that you don't personally agree with?

Man, you really are a ******* moron.
Just for you Sniper:

Human history begins with man's act of disobedience, which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and the development of his reason. --Erich Fromm

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your convictions is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. --Mark Twain

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. --Desmond Tutu

DARISC 07-14-2008 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottore (Post 4059426)
Just for you Sniper:

Human history begins with man's act of disobedience, which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and the development of his reason. --Erich Fromm

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your convictions is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. --Mark Twain

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. --Desmond Tutu
Just like you to do - quote some commie socialist ******* manbearpigs.

So what do you do? Sit around and read books?

******* moron.

RWebb 07-14-2008 09:38 AM
You think it makes someone a moron to read books?? How stupid is that?

Esp. when the posts just above discussed reading books - Small Wars Manual, and others. Jeez!

re aid & comfort - I don't know if that is a statutory crime or not. A DA can't prosecute unless Congress (or a state legislature) acts - except for common law stuff nd that is pretty much closed out nowadays.

This is very similar to putting a strip club near a school. We can hate it, but unless it's illegal, about all you can do is boycott/picket/put letters in the newspaper. we have that situation near here right now.

re sammy's weak response: Yeh - I'm proud of being a lawyer sammy. I force the govt. (exec. agencies) to obey the law (passed by Congress). I'm out there every day, unless I take a break and do some science for a while. I don't get much $$ for the lawyer gig but it beats sitting around the house and watching TV.

Now, what do you do for a living? I'm sure nobody is paying you to call other people bad names, like a child would do. So what is it you get paid for? Or if you are too young to have a job, what do you do with your time?

DARISC 07-14-2008 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 4059581)
You think it makes someone a moron to read books?? How stupid is that?
Hey Randy! I was funnin' Dottore! Mocking sniper"s response to Dottore:

"You're advocating participating in a revolt in the US as preferable to serving in a war that you don't personally agree with?

Man, you really are a ******* moron.

As far as hackworth, i always viewed him to be a douche bag."

Read my previous posts. I referenced you in one of them, as a matter of fact :D.

Edit: in particular, Dottore's response to me on page 4 :).

sammyg2 07-14-2008 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 4059581)
re sammy's weak response: Yeh - I'm proud of being a lawyer sammy. I force the govt. (exec. agencies) to obey the law (passed by Congress). I'm out there every day, unless I take a break and do some science for a while. I don't get much $$ for the lawyer gig but it beats sitting around the house and watching TV.

Now, what do you do for a living?
I'm a mechanical engineer.

So now you're a part-time lawyer who tells the government what to as well as a scientist that perpetuates the "man-made" global warming scam. Are you an astronaut and a fireman as well?
Did you ever have a conscience?


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