I drive my wifes 420 SEL to SF all the time to visit my daughter in college.
I love the look on people faces when I fly by at 95 MPH with one hand on the wheel.
Its like I am sitting in my living room. The thing just wont break, oh yeah I had a flat tire a couple of years ago. By the way I get 20-24 MPH in this boat. What a cruiser.
One of the head engineers at MB loves the 126 Chassis.. 1982-1991. Last of the real MB's

so the new ones suck, right?

Replacing the entire front end of an Audi to replace a coolant hose qualifies you for 951 ownership. But only if you can get through the procedure with less than two tools lost forever in the bowels of the engine and less than five cuss-words used. Good luck. :)

They are supposedly getting a little better, but the early 2000s MBs are absolutely junk. As big of a lemon-soaked POS as any Audi. I have an enormous amount of experience w/ MB cars, I've probably owned 20 of them from early '60s to '90s, my Dad bought new ones from mid-'70s on and ex-GF owned every S-class new from early '80s to 2008.

The 2001 S500 was in the shop all the time for issues minor and major, and it was not an anomaly. I swear those cars were built by the Chrysler division. :rolleyes:

Audi had some bad years quality-wise, I think your 2000 falls squarely in that era. Their '80s cars were not bad, and they have had some really strong models, believe it or not.

I have UrS4 and had to do lot's of fixing before I got it working. It's a overly complicated car (probably THE most complicated of any cars I owned) and I had to remove the front for just about any engine work.

After all work done I really like the car. It's quiet, fast and very safe with 4WD.

But yes, It's PITA to work on. I chose to see it as an challenge to fix this car. After numerous issues were done (converting hideous UFO-brakes to discs, fixing ignition, changing radiator, fluids and numerous sensors, relays, hoses and coolant hoses to name the few) car became issue-free. But they do require patience, time and technical mind to work on.

You all seem to be making a great big fuss about nothing. Pulling the front clip off the car to do any major work is par for the course on VAG vehicles. An experienced mechanic can have the front off in less than an hour. Not the end of the world...

Ha! My 951, while fairly tight to work on, is built much better. Replacing the clutch was a very large job, but still better to work on than the Audi.

My BMW has 285,000 miles on it with it's original, clutch, alternator (voltage reg brushes replaced), AC compressor, PS pump, starter etc.

I replaced the radiator once (pretty simple). It still has most of it's original hoses and drives out perfect. Repairs have been minor and it gets 26-27 mpg.

My older watercooled P-cars have most of their original hoses also.

Actually I have replaced upper control arms on both sides already. That bolt was a b@stard! The new one went in with Never-Sieze! A lot of that also had to come apart to simply change a CV boot. Installing the Eibach suspension kit in this car was definitely alot tougher than the Bilstein sport kit I installed in my BMW.

I have had great experiences with Audis. I've owned 11 of them and still own 5. The oldest one in the fleet is an '83 and the youngest is an '04. I've also owned 7 BMWs (still have 4 of them) and 4 Benzes (1 left.) Here's my take:

I have had the best luck with Audis that I bought new. No issues, ever, with those. Those that were bought used have had a few issues, although I can usually blame the technician that worked on them as much as the car. Still, no large expenses on any of them, ever.

The BMWs have never really let me down, they have just nickel-and-dimed me to death. The older cars are better than the new ones. Much better. I wouldn't own a modern BMW.

The Benzes have been the most expensive to own, by a long shot. Lots of things failed and they are more expensive to fix than a P-car. Rack up 100k miles on an S-class and add up the bills. You'll crap your pants.

Another thing, cars are getting a lot harder to work on, as the manufacturers cram more and more crap into smaller spaces. They all do it. As an aircraft guy, I'd have thought you were quite used to doing pain-in-the-ass jobs in tight spaces.

JR

When I sold Tim this Audi I did so because I came to the realization there was NOTHING I could work on myself. Every time a sensor went out it was a trip to the dealer. The last straw was when I wanted to check the turbos to see if they were a certain s/n or something and realized that I COULD NOT EVEN SEE THEM!!!!! Fellas, this thing has two of them and you can't even catch a glimpse. This is what Tim is saying, not that he expects hoses to last forever, just that seemingly zero consideration was given to ease of maintenance in the design stages.

Ever worked on a 928? Adjusted the valves on a 930? Changed a 944 clutch?

JR

I have adjusted the valves on my 930 several times, I didn't think that was a big deal at all outside of getting the feel down on the blades.

The point about the 930 valve adjsutment is all the crap that needs to come off before you get access to anything. If you've ever done the same job on a carb'd 911, you'll see how much harder it is to do the same job on a 930. I'm talking about one that still has A/C, the air pump and lines, etc. It takes longer to get to the valves on a 930 than to adjust them on an early 911.

My point was really that an Audi isn't worse (overall) to work on than other cars. It's just a sign of the times. Compare a twin turbo Audi with a twin turbo Porsche or Benz. Apples to apples.

JR

Not all early Audis suck.

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I would do notty, notty things to get my hands on a RS2. Really, the '90s S4 and S6 have a decent reputation for reliablility IF TAKEN CARE OF. The turbo 5-cylinder will run forever, and can make silly power with a few RS2 mods.

With that said, after owning an Audi A4, BMW 325 and 540, and now my C36, the MB wins hands-down for quality. Little stuff that would need replaced on the other cars, like the power seat switches, just needed a cleaning to spring back to life. It's hewn from solid granite, and thus far very straightforward and easy to work on. Plus, it's the first one that won't need every suspension bushing replaced at 100k.

Ultimately though, I have to agree with Jeff. The 951 is a car for sadists. I wonder how many tools and fasteners the current owners have found in that abyss of an engine bay?:D

The AWD twin turbo Audi wins the pain in the @ss to work on award hands down compared to every other car/airplane I have ever worked on. While pulling the bumper and lock carrier off is not rocket science, the fact that it has to come off for service to any accessory on the front of the engine is just frustrating. While many modern cars are complex, quattro Audis which are bought by people to use as daily drivers (not exotic weekend sports cars) have just too many areas that are difficult/time consuming to work on IMO. I have yet to have any car, airplane or motorcycle that I could not fix.

While my Audi has had a few more issues than my E36 BMW did when it had similar miles, my main gripe is with the relative difficulty of servicing it compared to other vehicles. My wife really wanted AWD when I bought it, but now after the Audi has failed on her numerous times, she wants a BMW again. She is currently driving her old BMW (my daily 80 mile roundtrip driver) while I am working on the Audi again and says she trusts it more than the Audi and wishes she would have believed me when I told her the BMW still had many good years left in it.

Another downside to the Audi in our situation is that almost all of our other cars are manuals. On the rare occasion that one has had a problem in the past, I have been able to tow it home with a tow strap. When the Audi has stranded her, I had to have it flatbedded home. Sure other brand automatics would be the same, but in my situation it is just one more strike against the Audi.

Tim,

You keep comparing a modern Audi with a previous generation BMW. I've changed all the coolant hoses on an early 90's Audi with no problems. Nothing had to come off of the car to get to them. My point was that the new cars all have a lot more crammed into them and they are harder to work on as a result.

Maybe it was all of the @#$%&* in the thread title that I felt was undeserved. It reminded me of a guy named Jim something-or-other....


JR

I suggested to the shop that does some maintenance on my MB's (I do most of it myself) my wife wants a early 90's 500SL. They said "don't do it" In fact keep your 126's.
1992-mid 2000's are nightmares. Electronics especially.

I have work on an old college friend's E46 and it definitely easier to work on compared to the Audi. If you think #%$%#@%@#$ is bad, you really don't want to get me going on the "big 3" US auto makers ;):D

Like I said, I needed to vent, but I would rather change an alternator, PS pump, PS rack, AC compressor, CV boot, halfshaft etc on most any car vs an Audi quattro any day YMMV. :)

Javadog, just curious; why do you own 10 (fairly ordinary) cars at one time? I used to have large stables myself, so just wondering.

+1

I think that has kind of gone back the other way. These days systems and sensors have been either consolidated or miniaturized and many engine bays are quite uncluttered. The 90's were the worst IMHO.

You are absolutely right. Other than cars with "10 lbs. in a 5 lb. bag", (like the new M3 w/ a V-8 in a 3-series body), most new cars are much cleaner under the hood than cars in the past 20 years or so. Some of the worst engine bays ever were in the '70s w/ air pumps and 10,000 vacuum lines going everywhere. Absolute garbage.

My 996 is possibly the easiest car I have ever worked on, but then nothing ever breaks so it's just brakes and adjusting suspension, etc... :cool:

Yup, they're all junk .... wanna race? :D

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LOL!!

I hand mine back to the dealership on Saturday and will never own one again for as long as I live for 2 reasons.

1. The car had more electrical gremlins than any car I have owned to date.

2. Audi treated me like crap through this entire deal.

I now own a 7 year old BMW with 70K mile son the clock, I am expecting problems, its a used, older car, what I did not expect was problems from a brand new $55K car.

So, do not worry, my Audi is gone on Saturday, and now I just get to smirk and smile as others torment in the torture of owning one.

Tims wife echoed my wife, she no longer trusted the Audi and did not want to drive it anymore. Nothing like paying $600 a month to lease a car your afraid to drive.

That's a nice car, one of the few Audis more than 10 years old that anyone would have any interest in.

I'd rather have your M3, though!

Curt - I am interested in your Quattro in a sadistic, self-hating kind of way. These were my favorite car during the 80s, and watching youTube vids of it and hearing that engine doesn't help me.

How hard is it to own/maintain? Honestly!

Short of an early 911, it's the most fun car I've ever driven. I had it out on some hard-pack twisty gravel roads yesterday doing my best Walter Rohrl impression and it makes you feel absolutely invincible. It's just totally in its element in those conditions. BTW: I've got the CAT hollowed out so its just running the little rear muffler - GREAT sounds :D

The 5-cylinder turbo motors are reliable. CIS injection much like Porsche's. Once it's setup right, you're pretty much good to go.

BTW: my 06 A4 has been dead-nuts reliable (50,000 miles). Same can't be said about my e46 M3 - lots of weird electrical gremlins that left me stranded in 2 instances.

I'm in a world of hurt if you believe everything you read...

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David, it looks like you take very good care of your cars, however if you plan to rack up lots of miles out of warranty on the Audi...... Good Luck and I hope you are a hardcore DIY type or you will rack up some hefty maintenance and repair bills once your control arms wear out, CV boots tear etc.

Against my advice my brother-in-law who is a doctor and is non mechanically inclined bought an A4 for my sister which was very reliable until recently since the warranty expired and the mileage has crept up..... He has had quite a few $1500 trips to the dealer for service. Unfortunately he also bought a new Q7 which while still under warranty, has been in the shop quite a few times already.

He is looking at BMW's now.

The problem I have witnessed is not so much how may problems the Audis have, but how difficult (if DIY) or expensive (if done at the dealer) they are to repair. As stated earlier, I love how our A6 drives, especially with the Eibach suspension kit.

Well, that's a long story. I assume you refer to the cars I listed above. I'll break it down. Some are ordinary, other not so...

The Audis:

'83 turbo quattro coupe - 53k miles, euro lights, bumpers, some engine upgrades, essentially flawless, easily one of the nicest left in the U.S.
'90 V8 quattro - kid's car (16 yr old boy)
'03 RS6 - neat car, why not have one
'03 S8 - my daily driver
'04 A8L - wife's daily driver

BMWs:

'88 M3 - Henna/black early car
'88 M3 - future track car, or Sport Evo copy, waiting on me to find time to build it
'90 325iS - bought as a gift for the wife, long story here
'91 M3 - last one sold in Tulsa, owned since new
'95 M3 CSL - has 3.2 Euro motor

The last Benz;

'94 320 SL - Everybody needs at least one convertible

There are others, more fun oriented. I'm actually in a mood to thin the herd somewhat. I'll probably sell the quattro coupe, the 325iS and both '88 M3s.

JR

Tim, yep I'm a DIY...I recently fixed the oil leak on the Disco. Check it out ;)

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I agree that proper/scheduled maintenance is key. I don't put a lot of miles on my cars, the Audi TT is a 2001 with 56K. Nearing the timing belt replacement but I still have yet to read the mail I got from Audi about extending the warranty. Other than oil changes and minor bits I don't think many/any newer cars are DIY friendly these days - at least they aren't engineered to be so.

I thought of this thread today as i swapped the starter in my LeBaron convertible in about 20 minutes flat. It gave me quite a good chuckle.

FWIW I have a 2000 S4 and really love it. Yes, it has started getting expensive to maintain/repair but prior to this year it was not really excessive IMO. Now it is approaching 115K and stuff is starting to let go. I wail the crap out of this car 50 miles a day and it still looks practically new, is plenty fast, and comfortable. I had a 97 M3 before this and the build quality and reliability were not as good. Can't say much about the newer Bimmers -- I think they're fugly and I'd be more likely to buy another Audi or an AMG Benz than a BMW at this point.

Try a Saab 900SE Turbo. I had to replace an alternator on it last year. No problem, should be a 30-45 minute job. 1st problem: couldn't find it! 2nd problem: once found, couldn't figure out how to access it. Problem solved: took it to mechanic who removed the front suspension just to swap out the friggin' alternator. 5 hours later, it was ready to roll :eek:

But then again most people here can change out a caster wheel on a shopping cart in about 20 minutes or less. At the end of the day you're still cruising in a Lebaron.

Is that Jon Voight's car?

A) There is no such thing as an uncool convertible.
B) When it breaks i can fix it with a pair of pliers and some duct tape
C) At the end of my life i will have saved enough money on repairs to have bought a couple brand new Audis...not that i ever would.
D) I also have a Porsche
E) You drive an evolved VW bug.

Any other comments?

Yeah. Life is a leeetle too short to drive a LeBaron.

But not too short to drive an obsolete, high maintenance, wildly overpriced VW Beetle derivative?

Not too short to waste all kinds of time with tows and visits to the mechanic to fork over thousands of dollars to fix your German ulber-wagon?

I think my Lebaron is a great little daily driver. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to kiss my heiney. :D